Mexicans vote for new president

[GAFES]

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexicans voted for a new president on Sunday, torn between joining a resurgent left-wing camp in Latin America or sticking to pro-business policies and a close alliance with the United States.

In a country crucial to U.S. interests in border security, trade and immigration, polls show an extremely close race between leftist anti-poverty crusader Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, the former mayor of Mexico City, and conservative Felipe Calderon from the ruling party.

Lopez Obrador, 52, headed opinion polls by about only 2 points after almost six months of bruising campaigning that split a country still finding its feet with full democracy after seven decades of one-party rule ended in 2000.

The leftist, who rejects comparisons to U.S. foe Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, promises to slash bureaucracy to pay for welfare programs he says will lift millions out of poverty.

"We've done it," shouted some 20 supporters as Lopez Obrador voted near his modest apartment in the capital.

The leftist, looking uncomfortable wearing a black leather jacket in the heat, had to wait in line while the polling station opened an hour late. There were delays at booths around the country.

In the border city of Nuevo Laredo, scores of Mexicans streamed over the Rio Grande from Texas to vote, many seeking a crackdown on drug gang violence that has killed some 1,000 people throughout the country this year.

Former energy minister Calderon, 43, says Lopez Obrador would overspend on ambitious social programs and huge projects like a bullet train from the capital to the U.S. border.

"That could drop us into very serious problems of economic stability," said union employee Mariano Silva, 26, after voting for Calderon in Mexico City's student district.

TIGHT RACE

Another candidate, Roberto Madrazo, lags in third place but his once long-ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, has an electoral machinery famed for getting its supporters out to vote and he may do better than his poll numbers suggest.

Turnout was expected to be reasonably high, at about two-thirds of Mexico's 71 million voters. Voting ends at 8 p.m. (9 p.m. EDT) (0100 GMT on Monday).

Lopez Obrador supporters complain that President Vicente Fox's National Action Party, or PAN, failed to live up to promises to create jobs and alleviate poverty, even though Mexico has one of the region's most stable economies.

"The PAN had its chance but didn't know how to use it," said car mechanic Jose Juan Bautista at a polling station in the poor town of Chalco, near the capital.

Food vendors sold tamales and tacos to people lined up to vote there as the sun rose from behind the snow-capped Iztaccihuatl volcano nearby.

In a country where at least half the population lives on less than $5 a day, Lopez Obrador has won support by promising to give pensions to those over 70 and cut energy prices.

Fox cannot run for office again under Mexican law.

Financial markets are hoping for a Calderon victory but worry that Lopez Obrador, a former Indian welfare officer with a history of organizing protests, might not accept that.

Lopez Obrador is expected to launch a legal challenge and maybe even street demonstrations if he loses by a narrow margin and suspects fraud. There is no runoff in Mexico, so whoever gains the most votes wins the election.

The United States has kept on the sidelines of the campaign, not even hinting at support for any candidate, but Calderon is more in line with U.S. views on politics and business. He would seek foreign investment in energy.

Lopez Obrador says his fight against poverty would curb illegal immigration to the United States by giving Mexicans more reason to stay home.

Voters will also choose a new Congress.

(Additional reporting by Frank Jack Daniel and Greg Brosnan)

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.


http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/IFE-Elecciones3.jpg

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/Personajes-votan13.jpg

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/edos06-uni1.jpg
http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/edos11-uni1.jpg

[GAFES]

My vote is for Lopez Obrador. He will win.

http://www.elporvenir.com.mx/upload/nota/amlo%20jura.jpg

[sir-chimp]

MEXICO CITY (AP) -- After a presidential campaign that exposed Mexico's deep class divisions, voters chose Sunday between a free-spending leftist pledging to put the poor first or a conservative pushing private investment and free markets as the keys to prosperity.

The presidential election is the first since Vicente Fox's stunning victory in 2000 ended 71 years of rule by the Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI. The vote will determine whether Mexico becomes the latest Latin American country to move to the left.

Polls predict a close race between conservative Felipe Calderon of Fox's party and leftist Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, a former Mexico City mayor. The PRI's Roberto Madrazo was running a distant third, ahead of two minor candidates.

Five governors and both houses of Congress also were being elected.

Officials hoped to announce a winner within hours of the 9 p.m. EDT closing of the last poll, based on a quick count. But they cautioned they would wait if the race was too close.

About 71 million of Mexico's 103 million people are eligible to vote.

Fox showed off his ink-stained thumb after voting across the street from the presidential residence in Mexico City with his wife, Marta Sagahun, and daughter, Ana Cristina Fox. He posed for photos with voters and declared Sunday "a happy day for Mexico."

Mexican law limits presidents to one term, and Fox plans to retire to his ranch in December after his replacement is sworn in.

Accompanied by his two children, Lopez Obrador voted in his middle-class Mexico City neighborhood.

"We did our part, now we just have to wait," he said.

The line there included Armando Juarez, 46, a high school teacher, who said he would vote for Lopez Obrador.

"I believe he represents hope, especially for people with low salaries who are looking for a more egalitarian country," Juarez said.

Madrazo voted in Villahermosa, in the southeastern state of Tabasco, and told a local radio station: "Citizens' trust is the ace up my sleeve."

In the upscale Mexico City neighborhood where Calderon lives, Francisco Avelar, a 61-year-old businessman, waited to cast his ballot.

"I hope that the direction of the country does not change," he said. "I already voted for change six years ago, and now I just want things to continue."

The election capped months of mudslinging and angry rhetoric. Lopez Obrador accused Calderon of catering to the rich, while Calderon warned that Lopez Obrador would put at risk the low-interest loans and other gains that helped swell the middle class during Fox's tenure.

Calderon compared Lopez Obrador to Venezuela's radical President Hugo Chavez, but Lopez Obrador named a conservative economic team that reassured investors, even as he spent his campaign reaching out to the 50 million Mexicans who scrape by on a few dollars a day.

Madrazo painted himself as the alternate to the "radical left and intolerant right." But many questioned how long his party, which suffered infighting and defections during the campaign, would survive past the election.

All three candidates promised to strengthen relations with the United States while opposing increased border security measures unpopular in Mexico, including building more border walls and President Bush's deployment of National Guard troops.

The estimated 10 million Mexicans living in the United States were allowed to vote from abroad for the first time, but the 41,000 ballots they requested were not likely to make much of a difference.

Thousands of those who missed out were heading south Sunday to cast votes at ballot centers set up along the border.

beauty eh ?

[tuercas]

i think the winner is going to be Obrador, he has been really succesfull at pointing out the problems with nafta to the peasant population and the problems with industry no thanks to all the cheap CHinese junk coming in from the US.

Former energy minister Calderon, 43, says Lopez Obrador would overspend on ambitious social programs and huge projects like a bullet train from the capital to the U.S. border.

"That could drop us into very serious problems of economic stability," said union employee Mariano Silva, 26, after voting for Calderon in Mexico City's student district.

Pinche catrin Calderon is the one to talk about overspending, anyone who has taken a trip to Guanajuato and Queretaro states lately will see all the money that poured in no thanks to the PAN regime while predominatedly PRD states like Michoacan are left in the dark ages. Leon, Guanajuato has changed by leaps and bounds with new freeway systems and an expansion to the airport, they even built a freeway from Silao to Guanajuato. Even crappy ass Irapuato got new roads, It is interesting that the new freeway from Irapuato gets cut off at the Michoacan line , You would think it would at least link to the Mexico-Guadalajara expressway in Ecuadureo let alone go alittle bit further to an important city like Zamora. the higway from la Piedad to Zamora is still a crumbling POS.

the high speed train would be nice, the first line is supposed to start here in Nuevo Laredo and go to Mexico city, i would love to be able to ride the train again, specially a modern one, proposals have already been made by swedish and german firms.

[Headcoach]

Who ever wins, I hope that they make a big chamge for the people of Mexico. This way, maybe they will stay in there own country. The answers are not here in the US. The Mexican people should fight for the right to have a better country. Left hope that this time the new President will make changes for the better.

Head coach

[Miles.]

My vote is for Lopez Obrador. He will win.

http://www.elporvenir.com.mx/upload/nota/amlo%20jura.jpg

Hells yeah. Fascist salutes always get my vote.

[ColonialMarine0431]

You'd be amazed at how little press this has gotten in the States. But NO ALCOHOL SALES ON ELECTION DAY!!! Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Barbaric!! rofl

[Headcoach]

You'd be amazed at how little press this has gotten in the States. But NO ALCOHOL SALES ON ELECTION DAY!!! Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Barbaric!! rofl

Well, it's getting coverage here in Phoenix. Land of over 3 million Illegals.

Head coach

[tuercas]

You'd be amazed at how little press this has gotten in the States. But NO ALCOHOL SALES ON ELECTION DAY!!! Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Barbaric!! rofl

the "ley seca"has never a problem for us, we just cross over to Laredo Texas to buy, so you best believe i am going to be swilling some Miller High life when i get home.


ells yeah. Fascist salutes always get my vote.

this is the roman salute for the pledge of allegiance , it has nothing to do with fascism.

My vote is for Lopez Obrador. He will win.
normally i would vote PRI because of my union but not this time around, I voted straigth PRD.

[khukuri]

My vote is for Lopez Obrador. He will win.






normally i would vote PRI because of my union but not this time around, I voted straigth PRD.


Nice, Good Luck guys!

regards for you and mexiko

[Ezekiel25:17]

All three candidates promised to strengthen relations with the United States while opposing increased border security measures unpopular in Mexico, including building more border walls and President Bush's deployment of National Guard troops.

Probably the only country that encourages thier own citizens to leave. No matter who wins it won't change a thing for the poor Mexicans who view thier only chance at a decent life is north of the border.

[Miles.]

Probably the only country that encourages thier own citizens to leave.

It's pathetic.

Exchanging one corrupt populist government for another. All the while the average citizen has little hope for economic advancement...

[GAFES]

It's pathetic.

Exchanging one corrupt populist government for another. All the while the average citizen has little hope for economic advancement...

How can you judge a candidate for president without him being president yet?

what I think is pathetic is re electing a baby killer like Bush.

[Ezekiel25:17]

How can you judge a candidate for president without him being president yet?

what I think is pathetic is re electing a baby killer like Bush.

1960 called and they want their line back.rofl Now THAT'S pathetic.

I wonder how many Mexican babies were killed do to poverty in Mexico?

[GAFES]

1960 called and they want their line back.rofl Now THAT'S pathetic.

I wonder how many Mexican babies were killed do to poverty in Mexico?

Mhh i have no idea. Maybe you can start counting how many babies were killed in Iraq by the ''smart bombs''.p-)

[Ezekiel25:17]

Mhh i have no idea. Maybe you can start counting how many babies were killed in Iraq by the ''smart bombs''.p-)

Probably not as much as death from poverty in Mexico.

[Headcoach]

How can you judge a candidate for president without him being president yet?



Well, first you need to look at his platform and see what he has done in the past and what he has done for the people within he state.

Did he help the state get ahead? Or, did he only help the businessman?

I had the good fortune on living Mexico City on the west side in a town up on the hill, called Cuajimalpa. I was a Ice Hockey Director for the Puma's of UNAM. The had a rink at the edge of Cuajimalpa and Bosques de Lomas.

My must understand that I worked and lived with the upper 5% of the richest population. One day, I asked them why they were having problems with the people down in south Mexico with the Zapatista's.

They told me that it was a bunch of indians that wanted more freedoms and education for there people.

So, the gingo that I am and not knowing the ways of the Mexican world. I asked them why don't they educated the people? One rich father in Bosques said that if we educate the people, then who will wash my car?
Who will clean my clothes? Who will make my dinner? Who will take my kids to school?

He said..."If we educate the poor, then they will ask for more money and then I could not afford to have all of these things!" No! He said, we will not educate them because we like it the way it is.

So you see, one of the major problem lies in the hand of the Mexican people. I say to you. Please educate your poor. Give them a chance for a better life. Increase your middle class.

The next thing is suggest is that Mexico allow foreign investors and allow investors to purchase land. Mexico has one of the most beautiful coast lines in the world. Allow investor to come in and built resorts to bring in tourist to help stabilize the economy. Those resorts will help generate jobs in the service industry.

Next, change the minimum wage in Mexico. Increase the wage for the average worker from $450.00 Peso a month ( $40.00 USD Per Month) to $9680.00 Peso per month ( This is equal to $5.50 an hour here in the US.) God knows, it's hard to live on that here in the USA. Thank god I make $23.00 an hour.

Head coach

[GAFES]

I would have tell him;speak for yourself buddy. Not all the upper social class thinks this way. My family owns several businesses... and abviously we are not poor. My parents and me think that for Mexico its better if people educate themselves in order to have a better life and to make full use of their rights. And even if you don't beleive it, there are programs that help the indians/poor people get basic education. Even My mom volunteered for 8 months to go teach indian communities in the high mountains.She had to take Nnahuatl language lessons. There are also scholarchips for them to go to the University. In conlusion the rich people doesn't decide who gets education or not. It's the government who has to work more on this issue.

[Frogg]

Good luck, Mexico. I hope whoever you elect makes you proud and does good things for your country.

[Headcoach]

And even if you don't beleive it, there are programs that help the indians/poor people get basic education. It's the government who has to work more on this issue.

Tell you Mom, thanks for putting in the extra time to help educate. However, I'm not just taking about the Indians. I'm talking about the lady who cooks your meals and washes your clothes. That's the one that needs to helped. Have you ever sat down with her and asked her what she wants out of life? Maybe some day she would like to own a small business where she would have a shop to sell things.

When I was in Mexico, the worker at the Pista practically made nothing. Like I said in the last posting, they made around $450.00 Peso a month. So how much does your worker at your parent's business make?

Maybe you can help her get started in a small business that will someday employee more Mexican wokers. That's how you grow a country.

And I agree with you about education. I believe that everyone should educate themselves if they want to get ahead. However, I don't think its the job of the government. However, I do believe they should provide an outlet so that they can educate themselves. What school did you go to?

Let me ask you this....
How much does it cost for you to go down to your local Automotriz to buy a car? How many Pesos? I'll tell you. About $300,500.00 MN Peso. That's how much a new Ford Mustang will cost in Mexico
http://www.fordlomas.com.mx/FordLomas/catalogo.do?control=verautos&grupo=autos

Why does it cost so much?

Gracias por la buena conversación.
Head coach

[AOCBravo2004]

Let me ask you this....
How much does it cost for you to go down to your local Automotriz to buy a car? How many Pesos? I'll tell you. About $300,500.00 MN Peso. That's how much a new Ford Mustang will cost in Mexico
http://www.fordlomas.com.mx/FordLomas/catalogo.do?control=verautos&grupo=autos

Why does it cost so much?

Gracias por la buena conversación.
Head coach

You do realize that price is for the GT version of the Mustang. I was quoted in Tucson, AZ for an 05 Mustang GT Convertible at around 35,000, this was last year. So the Mexican price for the Mustang GT is pretty close to the American price of the Mustang GT.

[Headcoach]

You do realize that price is for the GT version of the Mustang. I was quoted in Tucson, AZ for an 05 Mustang GT Convertible at around 35,000, this was last year. So the Mexican price for the Mustang GT is pretty close to the American price of the Mustang GT.

Yes! But I was Hoping that he would say that, not you. However, it doesn't matter. The lesson is done.

I wanted him to understand that this car, might be made on Toluca, which is just west of Mexico City. But, still cost the same as US cars.

What I wanted him to understand is...Just because things are made in Mexico, doesn't mean that they are of poor quality and that they should be sold....cheap! One way to build an economy is to sell the products for what they are worth.

Yes, I understand that the market sets the price. However, the average shop owner in Mexico shouldn't have to sell his good cheap, just because a tourist wants a deal or a steal. Instead of the Mexican shop owner (small businessman) rolling over, they should tell the person to go find it somewhere else. And in Mexico City, finding it cheaper is a pain with that traffic, I know, major pain.

It's just that things need to change in Mexico. It shouldn't have to be where the only way to make a change is for them to leave and cross the deserts of Arizona just so they can have a better life.

Change needs to start at home. Last month here in the US we had demonstration after demonstration of Illegal roaming the streets taking about there Illegal rights.

If those same 11 million illgals were to demonstrate in Mexico City in the main plaza called Zocalo. they would force the Mexican gonernment to make a change. Maybe, this is where things should start.

Head coach

[AOCBravo2004]

If those same 11 million illgals were to demonstrate in Mexico City in the main plaza called Zocalo. they would force the Mexican gonernment to make a change. Maybe, this is where things should start.

Head coach

Yeah, last time they tried that the ruling PRI government ordered the military to murder teh demonstrators just before the Olympics arrived!!!

[fremen]

Hells yeah. Fascist salutes always get my vote.

Milley, you and Ezequiel are as ignorant and stupid as always.

Sorry Gafes and Tuercas, I voted for Calderón. I'd rather move forward slowly than backwards to economic policies that were tried and tested back in the seventies and eighties and proved a total failure. I lived through those periods of constant devaluations and rising inflation, and I never want Mexico to go back to that. In the part of Mexico were I voted Calderón crushed both Madrazo and Obrador by huge margins, and at the moment of this writing the IFE has him slightly ahead nationwide (not all Mexico is Mexico City guys). May the best man win, no hard feelings. I guess we'll have to wait till Wednesday.

P.S. If Milley and Zeek want to talk corruption lets talk US in Iraq, lets talk private contractors, lets talk Richard Cheney and Haliburton, lets talk corrupt US congressmen (with money in the freezer) and senators (and campaign financing), lets talk Iraqi civilians killed by US forces (and their respective cover-ups), lets talk US presidential elections and their respective fraud allegations, etc, etc.

"Aquel que vive en casa de cristal no debe tirar piedras a sus vecinos."

[fremen]

When I was in Mexico, the worker at the Pista practically made nothing. Like I said in the last posting, they made around $450.00 Peso a month. So how much does your worker at your parent's business make?

Let me ask you this....
How much does it cost for you to go down to your local Automotriz to buy a car? How many Pesos? I'll tell you. About $300,500.00 MN Peso. That's how much a new Ford Mustang will cost in Mexico
http://www.fordlomas.com.mx/FordLomas/catalogo.do?control=verautos&grupo=autos
Why does it cost so much?
Gracias por la buena conversación.
Head coach

I guess you were in Mexico a long time ago, probably way before they removed the three zeros from the currency. No one in Mexico makes $450.00 pesos a month, not even a beggar on the street. Minimum wage is $48.00 a day, and almost no one wins minimum wage.

As for your question about the value of a Ford Mustang. The prices and interest rates for cars in Mexico have dropped considerably in the past ten years. Today, many Mexicans finance cars, while ten years ago they paid cash to avoid the exorbitant interest rates. Your scary figure of $300,500.00 M.N. is roughly around $26,359 USD, not too far away from its value in the US. Besides most Mexicans would opt to buy a less expensive option from Ford or other auto makers.
¿Alguna vez se te ocurrió consultar el tipo de cambio actual?

[kabex]

Uhm, this thread is full of ignorance. :(

I really wish Yankees studied the subject a little before going off throwing **** at Mexico, they don't have the slightest clue of what they are talking about. "$450 pesos a month" hahaha.

I've interacted with Americans on the internet for about 7 years, I've heard absolutely everything and to be honest I have never met a knowledgable American, regarding Mexico/Mexican history and politics.

Anyway, I hope the most popular man wins and the elections prove to be transparent, smooth and just.

I think it's a possibility that if AMLO loses, there will be some sort of mobilization which will get ugly. Just tonight AMLO supporters were shouting "FRAUD! FRAUD! FRAUD!" at IFE's representative, I mean, that's just a little extreme.

As for who I voted, let me quote our President:
"Mas vale paso que dure que trote que canse".
"Better a walk that endures than a jog that tires".

[tuercas]

now we are going to have to wait till wednesday for the results because neither AMLO or Calderon accept defeat. i never expected the vote to be this close.

[Headcoach]

I guess you were in Mexico a long time ago, probably way before they removed the three zeros from the currency. No one in Mexico makes $450.00 pesos a month, not even a beggar on the street. Minimum wage is $48.00 a day, and almost no one wins minimum wage.

As for your question about the value of a Ford Mustang. The prices and interest rates for cars in Mexico have dropped considerably in the past ten years. Today, many Mexicans finance cars, while ten years ago they paid cash to avoid the exorbitant interest rates. Your scary figure of $300,500.00 M.N. is roughly around $26,359 USD, not too far away from its value in the US. Besides most Mexicans would opt to buy a less expensive option from Ford or other auto makers.
¿Alguna vez se te ocurrió consultar el tipo de cambio actual?

Well, let see. Is that $48.00 USD a day? If that is the case. That would be $240.00 a week or $960.00 a month. (USD)

If it is $48.00 Peso a day, that would be $960.00 Peso per month. I said that they make $450.00 peso a month. Far less than your figure. However, this was back then.

And you are right. When I was in Mexico, the devaluation had just hit after I was there for a year, back in 1995.

However, I think that this whole thing is getting out of context. The comment was made about the value and what a ford is worth. Not whether the Mexican people can afford it or not.

Uhm, this thread is full of ignorance. :-(

I really wish Yankees studied the subject a little before going off throwing **** at Mexico, they don't have the slightest clue of what they are talking about. "$450 pesos a month" hahaha.

I've interacted with Americans on the internet for about 7 years, I've heard absolutely everything and to be honest I have never met a knowledgable American, regarding Mexico/Mexican history and politics.

Anyway, I hope the most popular man wins and the elections prove to be transparent, smooth and just.

I think it's a possibility that if AMLO loses, there will be some sort of mobilization which will get ugly. Just tonight AMLO supporters were shouting "FRAUD! FRAUD! FRAUD!" at IFE's representative, I mean, that's just a little extreme.

As for who I voted, let me quote our President:
"Mas vale paso que dure que trote que canse".
"Better a walk that endures than a jog that tires".

Ok, please educate me. How much does the average worker earn? Let start over and go from here.

[tuercas]

Ok, please educate me. How much does the average worker earn? Let start over and go from here.
i can help answer that question:

agricultural workers make about $50 pesos a day for a 4 hour work day.

unskilled services, like people who work at shoe stores and grocery stores for example, make about $600 pesos a week.

semi skilled clerical workers like secretaries make about $1500 pesos a week

construction workers make about $1000 pesos a week.

[AOCBravo2004]

i can help answer that question:

agricultural workers make about $50 pesos a day for a 4 hour work day.

unskilled services, like people who work at shoe stores and grocery stores for example, make about $600 pesos a week.

semi skilled clerical workers like secretaries make about $1500 pesos a week

construction workers make about $1000 pesos a week.

And for those wondering, I just looked up the exchange rate, you are looking at USD $1= $11 MXN Pesos

[fremen]

And for those wondering, I just looked up the exchange rate, you are looking at USD $1= $11 MXN Pesos

Your computer must be a little slow AOC, I just went across the border this morning (July 3) to buy pesos for my vacation. I got 11.27 per dollar, and I probably would have gotten more had I bothered to go to a bank instead of a Casa de cambio. Also, if you don't watch the Mexican news often, you wouldn't know that there are demonstrations in all of Mexico (including the Zócalo) for one reason or another, almost on a daily basis. Some people even demostrate naked. I don't think that anybody has gotten shot in Mexico for demonstrating in a long long time (and especially by the Army). It's one of the freedoms that Mexicans enjoy.

Kabex, you and I are on the same page, we voted for the same guy. I just think AMLO's campaign promises weren't very realistic or sane.

Headcoach, you base your knowledge of Mexico on the opinion of one rich bastard that you met and who was probably a priísta. Most Mexicans, if judged on yesterday's results, care very much about the country, its people, and its future. Priístas, who ruled the country for 71 years, thrived on maintaining people poor. This way they remained ignorant and their votes easy to purchase. Yesterday, the PRI's candidate did not win in any single state in the country and they were relegated to a sad and distant third place (21% of the total vote). Yesterday, I saw countless Mexicans of all ages and classes doing their duty to their country and many volunteering to make sure the election ran smoothly and without a hitch. More than 60% of elligible voters participated, I saw people in their nineties who could barely walk go to the polls. The election was clean and orderly which you can't always claim in the US, especially in resent years. Before telling us what you think Mexicans should do to better their economy (the US can't even fix Iraq's economy), you should inform yourself as to the proposals of the different Mexican candidates.
P.S. Your idea sounds like "sell the country to the Americans and then get jobs as their servants", I'm sure that wouldn't fly very well with most Mexicans.

[signatory]

July 3 (Bloomberg) -- Mexico's currency had its biggest gain in six years after ruling party candidate Felipe Calderon led early presidential returns. Stocks and bonds also surged.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aJ6CH8lTAf34&refer=home

[Headcoach]

i can help answer that question:

agricultural workers make about $50 pesos a day for a 4 hour work day.

unskilled services, like people who work at shoe stores and grocery stores for example, make about $600 pesos a week.

semi skilled clerical workers like secretaries make about $1500 pesos a week

construction workers make about $1000 pesos a week.

Ok! Then lets see if I have it.....
Agricultural worker makes $50.00 pesos a day times 5 ( I'm thinking that they will work on Saturday) $50.00 X 5 is $250.00 a week X 4 = $1000.00 a month. $90.90 UDS Per month or $1.13 per hour

Unskilled Service makes $600.00 X 4 weeks = $2400.00 a month. Which equals out to $218 USD per month or a $1.36 an hour.

Semi Skilled makes $1500.00 x 4 weeks = $6000.00 a month. Which equals out to $545.00 USD per month or $3.40 an hour.

Construction workers make $1000.00 x 4 weeks = $4000.00 a month. Which equals out to be $363.63 USD per month or $2.27 an hour.

The average minimum low wage worker here in the US makes $5.50 an hour. So, $5.50 X 40 hour (work week) = $220.00 a week X 4 weeks = $880.00 USD per month. That equals $880.00 X 11 ($1 = 11 Pesos) = $9680.00 peso per month.

So, the question that really need to answered is.......

How do we get the unskilled working salary to a level of $9680.00 Pesos per month or $5.50 per hour?

What is the answer? Do we have more natural resources than Mexico? Do we have better soil to grow things here than Mexico? Do we have better coast line to build nice resorts than Mexico? Do we make better cars?

Surely, there are great minds in Mexico that can figure out how to build a strong economy.

11 Million Illegals are here in America because they wanted something better for themselves and there family. However, that's 11 million that could make a change for the better in Mexico.

When are the 11 Million going to stand up for there rights in Mexico?

Head coach

[Headcoach]

Headcoach, you base your knowledge of Mexico on the opinion of one rich bastard (the US can't even fix Iraq's economy),

You must have forgotten! It was the American Tax Payer that came to your rescue during Mexican Peso Devaluation in 1994. Ah, but we must have forget about this don't we...how convenient .



Head coach

[AOCBravo2004]

Your computer must be a little slow AOC, I just went across the border this morning (July 3) to buy pesos for my vacation. I got 11.27 per dollar, and I probably would have gotten more had I bothered to go to a bank instead of a Casa de cambio.

I checked on the universal currency exchange, when I checked it the exchange rate was like 11.13 something or another. Right now it's at 11.0985.

Also I gave up on watching Telemundo and Univision , they are almost as bad as al Jazeera, Jorge Ramos is a tool, Galavision is better. But occasionally I will watch the novelas for the hotties!

Your idea sounds like "sell the country to the Americans and then get jobs as their servants", I'm sure that wouldn't fly very well with most Mexicans.

Why not? Mexicans already flee to the US to be our "servants" and that idea seems to fly well with Mexicans. This way they won't have to trek through the harsh desert, and be robbed by those sucmbag coyotes.

[Headcoach]

Why not? Mexicans already flee to the US to be our "servants" and that idea seems to fly well with Mexicans. This way they won't have to trek through the harsh desert, and be robbed by those sucmbag coyotes.

I guess I couldn't have said it better myself. rofl

Head coach

[tuercas]

So, the question that really need to answered is.......

How do we get the unskilled working salary to a level of $9680.00 Pesos per month or $5.50 per hour?

What is the answer? Do we have more natural resources than Mexico? Do we have better soil to grow things here than Mexico? Do we have better coast line to build nice resorts than Mexico? Do we make better cars?

Surely, there are great minds in Mexico that can figure out how to build a strong economy.

Head coach

it is a complex issue, i can tell you it is not a political issue and not even a corruption issue since what the politicians take is miniscule in comparison to what is available to the country. it really boils down to the value of our currency and the industrial output which cannot be compared to that of the United states.

Mexico made products cannot compete with cheap Chinese made products inported from the US, and Mexican agricultural products from mostly small farms cannot compete with US agro business giants Cargill and ADM so if our industries cannot grow , our currency will remain undervalued and therefore our economy in a developing stage.

11 Million Illegals are here in America because they wanted something better for themselves and there family. However, that's 11 million that could make a change for the better in Mexico.

When are the 11 Million going to stand up for there rights in Mexico?
surely you are not inciting us to armed revolt are you? believe me , you dont want that. Any national revolt happens here and the only thing that would happen is that even more people would leave to the US.

[fremen]

Headcoach,
Typical, that you assume that all of the 11 million illegal alliens in the US are all from Mexico. This website is full of people that think like you.
The bailout loan of 20 billion USD for the 1994 peso devaluation was paid off in advance by the Fox government if you weren't aware, and as a tax payer, I'm sure that it didn't affect you in the least minimum. The US also got interests back with that. In my opinion, it was money well spent comparing the billions that are being thrown down the toilet in Iraq each month. Besides, how do you think that the US keeps it government running with the current deficits? I believe that the US owes more money to other countries than Mexico has ever owed anybody.
As for the question of how to improve the Mexican economy, that's not your prerogative is it? I believe that Mexicans decided how to do it yesterday.

AOC,
Let me let you in on a little secret, but don't tell anyone OK?
Telemundo and Univision are US owned, not Mexican. Their coverage of events in Mexico is not really up to par, and even much less CNN, MSNBC, or Fox news (those three's coverage is frankly non-existent almost). If you wan't to watch real Mexican news (that is not Cuban-American), watch Mexican networks like Televisa or TVAzteca (Televisa owns Galavisión by the way). You can also read Mexican newspapers on-line, like www.eluniversal.com.mx (it has the most current updates from the IFE (Instituto federal Electoral) on the Mexican election results), or www.cronica.com.mx .
So don't just spew just anything out your mouth without being informed. Read a little and watch a little, then have an opinion.

[GAFES]

I checked on the universal currency exchange, when I checked it the exchange rate was like 11.13 something or another. Right now it's at 11.0985.

Also I gave up on watching Telemundo and Univision , they are almost as bad as al Jazeera, Jorge Ramos is a tool, Galavision is better. But occasionally I will watch the novelas for the hotties!



Why not? Mexicans already flee to the US to be our "servants" and that idea seems to fly well with Mexicans. This way they won't have to trek through the harsh desert, and be robbed by those sucmbag coyotes.


Wow, you guys want more of Mexico? Half of our territory is not enough for you? It's kind of creepy when you americans think like this. It just shows your arrogance, and hunger for territory.

[AOCBravo2004]

Wow, you guys want more of Mexico? Half of our territory is not enough for you? It's kind of creepy when you americans think like this. It just shows your arrogance, and hunger for territory.

My parents are from Mexico, mother is mestizo, father is castellano, and my parents came here LEGALLY. I don't want more Mexico, what I want is the damn illegals out of the USA. What I want is for Mexico to improve the situation in Mexico for Mexicans so that they don't have to come here illegally.

To me it's kind of creepy when the Mexican government exports its people to another country, the arrogance of Fox.

[fremen]

My parents are from Mexico, mother is mestizo, father is castellano, and my parents came here LEGALLY. I don't want more Mexico, what I want is the damn illegals out of the USA. What I want is for Mexico to improve the situation in Mexico for Mexicans so that they don't have to come here illegally.

To me it's kind of creepy when the Mexican government exports its people to another country, the arrogance of Fox.

Your parents probably had a very low level of education since they never bothered or managed to instill in you a love or pride for the country that they came from. I've met your type, the children of people that suffered so much that they wanted to forget where they came from. They probably didn't even teach you to speak proper Spanish. I kind of feel sorry for you because you sort of have no roots, or at least pride and a good knowledge of them. But, don't despair, among Mexicans you are a small minority, something we like to call a "malinchista". Most Mexicans have a great deal of pride and knowledge of their history and culture, even those that are poor and feel the need to emmigrate in seek for work.
Fox, is a historic president in Mexico, he defeated the PRI and ushered in the era of democracy. Under him there has been total freedom of the press, the peso has maintained its value, and inflation has been kept under check. Interest rates have decreased, six million Mexican families have been able to purchase a home (a record number). Five million Mexican families receive government asistance in the form of the "oportunidades" program. He increased the country's electricity production by 30%, he made government more transparent, etc, etc. He did not create illegal immigration, it has been going on for almost a century, many times with the blessing of the US government. The difference is that unlike past governments that paid no attention to people that left the country and acted like a blind man when these people were abused, Fox has had the balls to speak up for them and not abandon them simply because they left the country. Americans don't like that, but tough ****, because he's doing his job which is to look out for Mexicans, not Americans. The proof that he is no where near a bad president is that his approval ratings are near 70%, if they weren't then Felipe Calderón wouldn't be leading this election. Most Mexicans understand that if he didn't do more for the country it was because the Congress didn't let him, not because of his fault. You, on the other hand know very little about Mexico except the little that your parents taught you, that and what xenophobes like Lou Dobbs say each afternoon on TV.
P.S. Modern Mexicans really don't care what your skin color is or that of your parents (that "my mother is mestizo" bull****). We didn't really need to know. What matters is your intellect, your culture, your education, and the knowledge you possess.

Tu odio y amargura hacia tu propia gente me causa algo de lástima. Nunca sabrás lo que se siente ser Mexicano. Lástima Margarito.

[kabex]

Again, Americans: you have no idea of what you're talking about. Absolutely none.

It doesn't matter if you lived here for a few years or your great grand father was a Mexican, you have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about and you're just making yourself look stupid.

If you want to say something, please refrain to "I don't want illegals here" and that's that, we get the point. You don't need to point out numbers which are completely false, like "11 million" or ask us to raise our minimum wage to $5usd an hour, that's completely stupid.

Unless you know what you're talking about, refrain from talking.

Now, I agree, having millions of illegal immigrants in your country must suck, but if you didn't know, they are beneficial to American economy, and the country as a whole. I've discussed this with an American economist and he said the "strain" they put on taxpayers money and public services is next to zero, considering how much they contribute to the economy, and that they do end up paying some taxes one way or another(don't remember how).

You have to understand, if there are 11 million immigrants(from all of Latin-America, even Canada!) the grand majority of these are working every single day(otherwise how would they feed themselves, they are illegal).

You think you can afford to exterminate 11 million jobs? The American economy would take a dive. If the USA really wanted to "kick out" illegals, it would do so. It doesn't.

It has remained silent all this time because it's best to ignore it, as it is very beneficial. As Fox once said, Mexicans are doing jobs blacks won't do, even though some people said this claim was racist, it is very much right. Blacks are/used to be the lowest socioeconomic, and they had to do all the servant jobs, construction jobs, etc. The lowest stuff.

Now, many blacks don't want to do "lower" jobs even if they aren't educated or valuable in any way, so there are millions of jobs that no American wants to do(certainly not whites), what do you think happens? Offer meets demand! Latin-Americans come and take those jobs gladly.


There's no such thing as "Mexicans are taking our jobs" no one wanted those jobs in the first place, tell me, Americans of the board: do you want to wash hundreds of dishes non-stop for 8 hours every day, for just $5usd an hour?

No. Don't kid yourself.

Illegal immigrants are beneficial to America as a whole, and when they stop being so, the government will do something. I don't believe they have their hands tied to their back, it's still the most powerful government in the entire world, don't tell me they can't crack down on a few million illegals.

[fremen]

Wow, you guys want more of Mexico? Half of our territory is not enough for you? It's kind of creepy when you americans think like this. It just shows your arrogance, and hunger for territory.

All this illegal allien and border hoopla is probably just an excuse by a certain group of right wing US politicians to try to get their hands on Mexico's oil, not beaches like coach likes to say. Also, they are using this to try to get themselves re-elected next November. Believe me Gafes, none of these bozos have the least bit of interest in the welfare of the Mexican people. Did you know that the number of immigrants claimed to cross into the US each year is exaggerated by the US border patrol to try to obtain more money from the government. A certain border patrol friend of mine let me in on this little secret. People like Lou Dobbs also use this subject for their ratings knowing that it attracts a lot of trailer park trash. I remember that before he used to claim that "3 million illegal alliens cross into the US from Mexico each year." Can you believe that? That would be 15 million in the last five years! Bullcrap! He latter reduced his figure to half a million, but even that is exaggerated a little. The guy's a fat fvck s.o.b.

[AOCBravo2004]

delete plz

[JKD]

There's no such thing as "Mexicans are taking our jobs" no one wanted those jobs in the first place, tell me, Americans of the board: do you want to wash hundreds of dishes non-stop for 8 hours every day, for just $5usd an hour?

No. Don't kid yourself.

I'm an American citizen. My first job was bussing tables at a restaurant for minimum wage. All of the bussers, cooks, and dishwashers at this restaurant happened to be white American citizens. My next job was washing dishes. The job after that was construction. My mom cleaned apartments and did laundry at a hotel for a living when I was growing up.

What do you think? That every low paying job in America is taken by an illegal immigrant? That white people are just born doctors, lawyers, corporate executives, etc.?

For every job that is taken by an illegal there is someone who is a citizen or who is otherwise in the US legally who needs a paycheck and who would take that job.

[GAFES]

All this illegal allien and border hoopla is probably just an excuse by a certain group of right wing US politicians to try to get their hands on Mexico's oil, not beaches like coach likes to say. Also, they are using this to try to get themselves re-elected next November. Believe me Gafes, none of these bozos have the least bit of interest in the welfare of the Mexican people. Did you know that the number of immigrants claimed to cross into the US each year is exaggerated by the US border patrol to try to obtain more money from the government. A certain border patrol friend of mine let me in on this little secret. People like Lou Dobbs also use this subject for their ratings knowing that it attracts a lot of trailer park trash. I remember that before he used to claim that "3 million illegal alliens cross into the US from Mexico each year." Can you believe that? That would be 15 million in the last five years! Bullcrap! He latter reduced his figure to half a million, but even that is exaggerated a little. The guy's a fat fvck s.o.b.


At that rate in a few decades Mexico will become a ghost country. We are doomed.rofl



Por cierto, ya viste las imagenes del fusil FX-05 que fabrico la SEDENA?

[fremen]

delete plz

Why did you delete your post? I was just about to reply to it. You said Kabex' point isn't valid because he only spoke to one economist. Well, what about the opinion of the President of the United States of America, that says that illegal immigrants provide a valuable service and are important to the economy. Being as stupid as he is he probably had to consult a lot of economists to figure that one out.
I live, work and pay taxes in the southwest (and have dual-citizenship), I know that they contribute greatly to our local economy and that many industries here would collapse without them (including construction and agriculture). You can't b.s. me, my family has been here on the border since before this was part of the US, way longer than yours.
JKD: W e l c o m e t o t h e U S A! We can talk about illegal alliens from China some other time, this thread is about the Mexican elections but has been hijacked by a group of xenophobes and coconuts. D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d m e?

[fremen]

At that rate in a few decades Mexico will become a ghost country. We are doomed.rofl



Por cierto, ya viste las imagenes del fusil FX-05 que fabrico la SEDENA?

No ¿Dónde están? ¿En la maf?

[JKD]

JKD: W e l c o m e t o t h e U S A! We can talk about illegal alliens from China some other time, this thread is about the Mexican elections but has been hijacked by a group of xenophobes and coconuts.
I wasn't the one who started talking about illegal immigration in this thread. This thread seems to have a wide variety of discussions going on. From kabex talking about illegal immigration to you insulting people's parents to tin foil hat time conspiracy theories that the debate over illegal immigrants in the US is some how tied into a plot for Mexican oil. Highly entertaining thread.

[GAFES]

No ¿Dónde están? ¿En la maf?

Aqui en el foro puse unas fotos. A ver que te parece.

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82106

[ViktorNavorski]

Why do people even bother arguing, it is never Mexico's fault being the paradise that it is and two wrongs certainly do make a right.

[AOCBravo2004]

Why did you delete your post? I was just about to reply to it. You said Kabex' point isn't valid because he only spoke to one economist.

I deleted it for several reasons. Also about Kabex point not being valid, the context it was in was that he said we know nothing and should not talk, yet he went off, ranting and raving, after discussion with one 'economist'.

[sir-chimp]

Why do people even bother arguing, it is never Mexico's fault being the paradise that it is and two wrongs certainly do make a right.


cause it's funny to see fremen go all foamy at the mouth?

[fremen]

¡Ya las ví! ¡Gracias!
Nice, really sweet!

[fremen]

I deleted it for several reasons. Also about Kabex point not being valid, the context it was in was that he said we know nothing and should not talk, yet he went off, ranting and raving, after discussion with one 'economist'.

You edited the part where I said that the President of the United States validated what Kabex said too.

[fremen]

cause it's funny to see fremen go all foamy at the mouth?

It's not my fault that I foam, I blame that on your mother for bitting me chimp.

[sir-chimp]

It's not my fault that I foam, I blame that on your mother for bitting me chimp.


lol

hows preaching that "racial pride" working out for you buddy?

[kabex]

What I said I did not learn from just one economist, he was the one who reaffirmed my beliefs, but I have read and heard about it for several years now.

I read at least a little bit every day, I have been studying the subject for several years. I know what I am talking about because I live here, I know these people, I know the situation, I know what they think, what they want, what they do, how it affects Mexico, the USA, the world. I know because I have studied this for several years.

I've talked to many illegal immigrants, and Americans about the subject. The people throwing crap at Mexico have absolutely no idea of what they are talking about, as was demonstrated in numerous occasions already in this thread.

Everything I've said can be proven, none of it refutted. You are welcome to try.

JKD: Good point, but you're an exception. I am talking socioeconomics, and in socioeconomics Whites aren't a lower class.

[AOCBravo2004]

You edited the part where I said that the President of the United States validated what Kabex said too.

Bush said there were WMD's in Iraq as well, what's your point? So you only like Bush when you agree with his stance?

[JKD]

JKD: Good point, but you're an exception.

Uh....no I'm not. Not by a long shot.

[AOCBravo2004]

What I said I did not learn from just one economist, he was the one who reaffirmed my beliefs, but I have read and heard about it for several years now.

And so the rest of the economists that didn't reaffirm your beliefs are wrong???

[shocker1]

What I said I did not learn from just one economist, he was the one who reaffirmed my beliefs, but I have read and heard about it for several years now.

I read at least a little bit every day, I have been studying the subject for several years. I know what I am talking about because I live here, I know these people, I know the situation, I know what they think, what they want, what they do, how it affects Mexico, the USA, the world. I know because I have studied this for several years.

I've talked to many illegal immigrants, and Americans about the subject. The people throwing crap at Mexico have absolutely no idea of what they are talking about, as was demonstrated in numerous occasions already in this thread.

Everything I've said can be proven, none of it refutted. You are welcome to try.

JKD: Good point, but you're an exception. I am talking socioeconomics, and in socioeconomics Whites aren't a lower class.
When I was in high school you could get a part time job at any carpet plant and make $12 hr to start. Go around and mow grass for extra money but these days a teenager or unskilled American has a hard time finding a job. The carpet mills have been starting people at $8 hr now because of depressed wages. Mohawk Industries is just one example, they had stacks of fake social security cards to give to their illegal workers. Respect is earned, breaking our laws as soon as an illegal steps foot in America will earn you scorn.

[GAFES]

People Calderon is the new president of Mexico.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1568/untitled5554na.jpg

[GAFES]

Felipe de Jesús Calderón Hinojosa (b. 18 August 1962 in Morelia) is a Christian Democrat Mexican politician. He is the current presidential candidate of the right wing National Action Party (PAN) to the upcoming 2006 presidential election. Results from the Federal Electoral Institute's "Programa de Resultados Electorales Preliminares" (Preliminary Results Program) show him with a narrow margin of more than 1% (about 400,000 votes) over adversary Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador; Although a fairly accurate indicator, PREP results are indeed preliminary, with the official results deriving from manual counting of ballots to begin on Wednesday. He is also a former president of his party and former Secretary of Energy in the cabinet of President Vicente Fox.

Felipe Calderón Hinojosa is the son of Luis Calderón Vega and María del Carmen Hinojosa González. He received a bachelor's degree in law from the Escuela Libre de Derecho in Mexico City, has master's degree in economics from the Instituto Tecnológico Autónomo de México (ITAM) and has a master's degree in public administration from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. He is married to Margarita Zavala, deputy with license of the National Action Party (PAN), and has three children: María (9), Luis Felipe (7) and Juan Pablo (3)

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20060704/2006_07_03t085719_450x300_us_mexico_election.jpg?x=380&y=253&sig=d.ikuHnJdfvF4nxqmAnbZw--

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/Calderon-festejos5.jpg

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/Calderon-festejos4.jpg

[khukuri]

fvck... 6 darn years

[kabex]

When I was in high school you could get a part time job at any carpet plant and make $12 hr to start. Go around and mow grass for extra money but these days a teenager or unskilled American has a hard time finding a job. The carpet mills have been starting people at $8 hr now because of depressed wages. Mohawk Industries is just one example, they had stacks of fake social security cards to give to their illegal workers. Respect is earned, breaking our laws as soon as an illegal steps foot in America will earn you scorn. One can live a perfectly decent life in America earning minimum wage($5.something).

Depressed wages? Blame your government, not hard workers.

GAFES: Yeah... I'm pretty content right now. Calderon has kept a 1% advantage since the beginning, I think.

What saddens me is the AMLO supporters crying, whining, yelling, pulling, bleeding all over TV.

[Creeper]

KABEX WROTE:
One can live a perfectly decent life in America earning minimum wage($5.something).

Depressed wages? Blame your government, not hard workers.

Smell that? You pulled those words out from deep inside your arse. You must be wearing a pair of clean white socks. Pretty big juevos coming from a citizen(?) whose Government has not assisted International Coalition Militray Organizations in the past 30 + yrs.

You, pico nino, can go choke yourself. LOL.

[AOCBravo2004]

One can live a perfectly decent life in America earning minimum wage($5.something).

Oh really???

Morgan Spurlock’s 30 Days - Living on Minimum Wage

Morgan Spurlock's 30 Days FXIf you caught the premier episode of Morgan Spurlock’s, of Super Size Me fame (you can check out his blog here), 30 days on the FX Channel then you saw the plight of your average, minimum-wage, hard-working but barely scrape by Joe Schmoe. The episode was amazing as it happened to hit upon a lot of the major issues minimum wage earners tackle: keeping up with rent, dealing with health issues without insurance, among other issues. It was shown at 10pm but then had an encore presentation at 11pm. I don’t know if it’ll be shown again but it’s a show you definitely should find time to watch.


The story begins with Morgan and his girlfriend locking up all of their savings, credit cards, etc. in a lockbox and starting the 30 days with only one week of minimum wage ($5.15/hr) savings, it amounted to something like under $150 each. With that, they moved to Columbus, Ohio because it represented mainstream America to him. I didn’t know this but Ohio has 4 of the 25 poorest cities in all of America (how they calculate that, I’m not sure).

Renting An Apartment
Since most places required proof of employment, Morgan was forced to look in shadier parts of town. They settled on a $325 a month renovated crack den (literally) that allowed them to pay the deposit over a few months. With only $300 in savings, this was their best option. Their thermostat had two settings: On and Off.

Getting a Job
He started by getting a job through a temp agency at $7 and then moved into construction, which paid better. Now, it’s better than the bare minimum but not much. She snatched up a dishwashing job, which I think was under the table. The downside of construction was that he then hurt his wrist and had to decide between health care and food.

Health Problems
Here is when things get interesting… Morgan hurt his wrist but kept working, making it worse, and avoided going to the emergency room because of the cost. He tried the free clinic but it only took twenty people and he was number thirty five. Then, the next day, his girlfriend had a urinary tract infection that required a 6am trip to the ER, $20 in antibiotics from CVS across town, and then a day or two of not working. They didn’t have insurance. Later on, Morgan had to make a trip to the ER where he basically got a $40 ACE bandage. The total bill for both trips amounted to like a thousand bucks - or three months worth of salary.

Children
One of Morgan’s coworkers had FOUR kids, whereas he had none, and he was supporting them on the same minimum wage. So he borrowed some kids from relatives! They went to like the dollar store in order to get them gifts and a box of candy each… and they fought a little about it.

Public Transportation
In the beginning, they bought one bus pass and tried to use public transportation whenever possible. Sometimes the bus times would change on them or a line would be shut down for the night and they were screwed. They had to get a taxi and spend $15 of their hard earned money to get home.

Handling Bad Luck
The episode really just shows that when you’re barely scraping by (and I don’t mean Michael Jackson style where you’re spending a couple million more than what you’re taking in, I mean really barely scraping by), it’s very very hard to handle bad luck. Having the bus flake out on you costs $15 and having an injury or illness costs you far more - it’s those bad luck scenarios that dig folks in a deeper and deeper hole if everything else is going right.

At the end of thirty days…
They were $1000 in debt but at least they still had electricity, water, and a roof over their heads… right?

Takeaways:
Working minimum wage is very very hard. It’s very hard to make ends meet and I think a lot of people take it for granted the things they have. It’s hard trying to support children making only $50 a day. If you have health insurance and you don’t have to decide between food and getting your wrist checked out, thank your lucky stars… I know I do.

Also, the episode really showed you how critical health insurance is and how perhaps countries that have universal health care probably are doing things right. Sure, if you have a good job with benefits, you don’t want to pay a little extra in taxes to fund universal health care… but what about the millions of Americans without health care? What if you just paid a few more percentage points of wages to ensure everyone had health care coverage? I think I’d be willing to chip in more so we don’t have people having to make these kinds of decisions.

Finally, the best part about this show was that it dispels a lot of misconceptions people have (called the fundamental attribution error). Some folks have the misconception that people who can only work minimum wage jobs are uneducated, inarticulate, drug-using lowlifes who couldn’t do any better. Well, Spurlock and his girlfriend are educated, articulate, drug-free vegans who just couldn’t do any better.

Did you catch the show? What did you think of it?

http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/morgan-spurlocks-30-days-living-on-minimum-wage.html

[GAFES]

KABEX WROTE:

Smell that? You pulled those words out from deep inside your arse. You must be wearing a pair of clean white socks. Pretty big juevos coming from a citizen(?) whose Government has not assisted International Coalition Militray Organizations in the past 30 + yrs.

You, pico nino, can go choke yourself. LOL.

juevos? pico nino? militray? International Coalition Militray Organizations ?

Anyone else from Puki Puki Islands who can translate this for us? rofl

[Daniel1115]

Bets on Calderon win ignite Mexican stocks
Market forecasts defeat for left-leaning rival Lopez Obrador

By Polya Lesova (http://www.marke****ch.com/news/mailto.asp?x=112+108+101+115+111+118+97&y=Polya+Lesova&z=marke****ch.com&guid=%7B89dd06c2-3d9f-454c-9a56-321ea07ef811%7D&siteid=mktw), Marke****ch
Last Update: 7:22 PM ET Jul 3, 2006

NEW YORK (Marke****ch) -- Mexican stocks surged Monday on reports that the conservative presidential candidate, the market favorite, holds a one-percentage-point lead in Sunday's too-close-to-call election.

The official outcome will not be known for days, but preliminary results, based on returns from 98.2% of all Mexican polling places, showed Felipe Calderon winning 36.37 % of the vote, while leftist Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador trailed with 35.36%, according to Mexico's Federal Election Institute, the agency in charge of computing the votes.

The institute said results aren't final and that the winner would be announced only after an official count, which is to begin Wednesday.

The stock market, however, felt it had been given sufficient information to assume a Calderon victory.

The benchmark Indice de Precios y Cotizaciones jumped 914 points, or 4.8%, to 20,061 in Monday trades. The IPC has increased over 40% during the past 12 months, placing Mexico among the two best-performing Latin American markets.
The exchange-traded S&P Latin America 40 fund (ILF: Last: 141.65+4.93+3.61%) gained 3.6% Monday.
http://www.marke****ch.com/News/Story/Image.aspx?Guid=89dd06c23d9f454c9a56321ea07ef811&Track=201
The Mexican peso was up 2% against the U.S. dollar in Monday trading.

The Mexican president, elected to a six-year term, plays a central role in directing the country's economic policy.
Respectful of results

"It's going Calderon's way," said Damian Fraser, a strategist at UBS Investment Research in Mexico, in a Monday interview with Marke****ch. "The margin is big enough."

Lopez Obrador, though, joined Calderon in rushing to declare himself the winner, casting doubt on the candidates' mutual promise to respect official election results.

The business community favors Calderon, a Harvard-educated lawyer and former energy secretary, who is a member of the ruling National Action Party of outgoing President Vicente Fox. Calderon has vowed to continue Fox's free-market policies.

In contrast, his rival Lopez Obrador, the popular mayor of Mexico City, has said he would spend more public money on social programs and review Mexico's membership in the North American Free Trade Association.

Lopez Obrador's anti-capitalism rhetoric has earned him comparison to left-wing Latin American politicians such as Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Meanwhile, in Bolivia President Evo Morales' party, Movement Towards Socialism, seems to have secured a majority in the country's assembly with 134 seats out of 255, according to Bolivian newspaper La Razon, which cited preliminary counting.

Market impact

A Calderon victory would be positive for cement company Cemex (CX (http://www.marke****ch.com/tools/quotes/detail.asp?view=detail&symb=CX&siteId=mktw&dist=mktwstoryquote) : Last: 60.50+3.53+6.20%) and Mexican residential builders such as URBI, said Carlos Peyrelongue, an analyst at Merrill Lynch in Mexico, in a Monday note to investors. Shares of Cemex were last up 4.79% at $59.70.

In a note to investors last week, UBS's Fraser said a Calderon loss stood to impact sectors subject to regulation and competition policy, such as banking, media, telecommunications, cement, beverage and construction.
http://www.marke****ch.com/News/Story/Image.aspx?Guid=89dd06c23d9f454c9a56321ea07ef811&Track=202
Charles A. Gabriel, an analyst at Prudential Equity Research, had said a Calderon loss could be interpreted as "increasing risks that the past decade's progress on the Mexican economy and budget deficit might be reversed, and that Mexican exporters, who are struggling to compete with Chinese and other low-cost Asian producers, might be disadvantaged."

Morgan Stanley analysts, however, said Mexico would not confront a crisis regardless of the outcome of the presidential election.

"We are less concerned about campaign rhetoric translating into new costly government programs than some," said Gray Newman, a Morgan Stanley analyst, in a note to investors Monday. "With the abundance of resources of late and magnitude of the inflows, it should be difficult to produce a negative fiscal performance in the near term."

As evidence, Newman pointed to several factors:

The Mexican central bank holds $77 billion in international reserves, a figure that was in the single digits in the early 1990s.
The peso is floating freely.
Early this year, the country had a small current-account surplus, compared with a deficit of 7% of GDP in 1994.
The price of oil, Mexico's main export, has soared to more than $70 a barrel.
Foreign investment continues to flow into the country as investors view Mexico as closely linked to the United States.Newman, however, expressed concern about "the medium-term viability of the current economic policy mix" because of Mexico's dependency on oil production -- which accounted for one-third of all public-sector revenue -- and on the American economy.

"If the U.S. slows sharply and oil prices correct, Mexico ... would require a dramatic and wrenching reduction in public spending," Newman said.

If oil prices dropped to the past decade's average level, Mexico would have to cut public spending by almost 5%, Morgan Stanley estimated. http://i.mktw.net/mw3/News/greendot.gif
http://www.marke****ch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B89DD06C2%2D3D9F%2D454C%2D9A56%2D321EA07EF811%7D&siteid=mktw&dist=

[kabex]

Oh really???



http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/morgan-spurlocks-30-days-living-on-minimum-wage.html
Do you have any first hand experience? Yes/No.

As long as you're young, healthy and single without kids it's very much possible, you even have a chance to save and spend on useless things.

When I was young(18) I thought about spending a while in the US, maybe a year at best. An uncle of mine is a citizen who owns a grocery store, he told me to go over and check it out.

I went(it was close from where I lived) and worked about a week, I always had something against working illegaly so my judgement won eventually.

Anyway, it was very much possible to live with $5 an hour, which was what I was getting paid($5, flat). My living expenses were $250 of rent, in a very decent apartment which I shared with one friend, add maybe $100 of bills max(including internet), I spent next to nothing on food because I was free to eat anything I could on the store(it was also a deli), maybe $100 a month.

Anyway, my living expenses would have been $450 and I would have been earning $1200. That's $750 surplus!

So shut up. It's very much possible to live on bare minimum wage. You live damn good on minimum wage, in fact.

I come from an upper middle class family and I have always had everything at my disposal, never lacked anything. I wanted to do it more as an experience but anyway, I would never do it, not because of not living well(it's a great life) but because I am morally against it. Not to mention I would never live in the USA no matter what I get paid, nowadays.

[AOCBravo2004]

Do you have any first hand experience? Yes/No.

So shut up. It's very much possible to live on bare minimum wage. You live damn good on minimum wage, in fact.

I come from an upper middle class family and I have always had everything at my disposal, never lacked anything. I wanted to do it more as an experience but anyway, I would never do it, not because of not living well(it's a great life) but because I am morally against it. Not to mention I would never live in the USA no matter what I get paid, nowadays.

Have I worked minimum wage? Yes, I have experience. I have worked as a busboy in fact. Making 4.50 plus tips, since it was a new restaurant it didn't have a lot of customers so I didn't make much in tips.

You are a COMPLETE AND UTTER IDIOT!!! You are basing the fact that you can live damn good on minimum wage on you working for 1 week at $5/hr??? Sounds like you need a cup of STFU yourself.

Guess what $hit for brains, not everyone that is making minimum wage is young, healthy, single, or without kids.

5.15x40hrs/wk=$206/wk x 4wks = $824/month! That $824 a month is also not take home, that is PRE tax!

[ViktorNavorski]

Have I worked minimum wage? Yes, I have experience. I have worked as a busboy in fact. Making 4.50 plus tips, since it was a new restaurant it didn't have a lot of customers so I didn't make much in tips.

You are a COMPLETE AND UTTER IDIOT!!! You are basing the fact that you can live damn good on minimum wage on you working for 1 week at $5/hr??? Sounds like you need a cup of STFU yourself.

Guess what $hit for brains, not everyone that is making minimum wage is young, healthy, single, or without kids.

5.15x40hrs/wk=$206/wk x 4wks = $824/month! That $824 a month is also not take home, that is PRE tax!
To add to that, kabex obviously lack to intellect to also realize that most people might not have the luxury of a roommate or some uncle with a deli where they can eat for free regularly.

[shocker1]

One can live a perfectly decent life in America earning minimum wage($5.something).

Depressed wages? Blame your government, not hard workers.



Lets see:cantbeli:
Power $150
Water $25
house $700 (thats cheap)
Kids expenses $300 (each) got 2
Groceries $300 (cheap month)
Gas $200
I could go on, living on $5 per hour is impossible unless 10 people share the same house. I blame the goverment and ILLEGAL workers for the depressed wages. As I said before do it legal or stay out, we don't want ILLEGALS here no matter what nationality they claim or what Bush says.

[JKD]

Do you have any first hand experience? Yes/No.
Yes.

My first experience living on my own I was working a least 48 hours a week, very rarely spending money on anything that was not essential, and still stressing out about being able to come up with my share of rent, utilities, and groceries every month. My 2 roomates were having just as hard a time.

As long as you're young, healthy and single without kids it's very much possible, you even have a chance to save and spend on useless things.
What happens when you are older, married, with children, you or someone in your family gets sick or injured and you have no insurance? What happens when your kids need clothes? What happens when the car breaks down? What happens when you have all those mouths to feed and your uncle isn't handing out free food?

[kabex]

^^
If living on minimum wage was impossible in the USA it would not be called a "first world country". Funny how AOCBravo2004 did the math with only 5 days a week... if you're working 5 days a week, you deserve to live like ****.

You have no idea how easy it is to live with minimum wage in the USA compared to other, less fortunate countries. The fact that you're complaining about it shows your incredible ignorance regarding this.

If you think living on minimum wage in the USA of all places, is tough: try doing it in Mexico, or Nigeria.

Hahahahaha, just great. A bunch of Americans saying they have a hard time living on minimum wage... hey buddy, why don't you come over here and check out just how hard a hard life is. You guys have got it made, you should never complain, you have no freaking clue.

[JKD]

^^
If living on minimum wage was impossible in the USA it would not be called a "first world country".
That must be why we have homeless. Must be why there are charities. Must be why we have food and clothing drives. Welfare. Food stamps.

I'll let you in on a little secret. The United States has poor people. Britain has poor people. Canada has poor people. All first world countries do.

Funny how AOCBravo2004 did the math with only 5 days a week... if you're working 5 days a week, you deserve to live like ****. Many employers don't like paying a whole lot of overtime if any. Sometimes you just can't find a second job. Or if you can they might not be willing or able to schedule your hours around your other job.

You have no idea how easy it is to live with minimum wage in the USA compared to other, less fortunate countries. The fact that you're complaining about it shows your incredible ignorance regarding this.

If you think living on minimum wage in the USA of all places, is tough: try doing it in Mexico, or Nigeria. If your whole point is that it's better to be poor in America than in many other parts of the world I agree.

Hahahahaha, just great. A bunch of Americans saying they have a hard time living on minimum wage... hey buddy, why don't you come over here and check out just how hard a hard life is. You guys have got it made, you should never complain, you have no freaking clue.
Well I've since escaped minimum wage hell, but I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that being poor was easy anywhere.

Still doesn't answer any of these questions:
What happens when you are older, married, with children, you or someone in your family gets sick or injured and you have no insurance? What happens when your kids need clothes? What happens when the car breaks down? What happens when you have all those mouths to feed and your uncle isn't handing out free food?

[kabex]

That must be why we have homeless. Must be why there are charities. Must be why we have food and clothing drives. Welfare. Food stamps.

I'll let you in on a little secret. The United States has poor people. Britain has poor people. Canada has poor people. All first world countries do.

Many employers don't like paying a whole lot of overtime if any. Sometimes you just can't find a second job. Or if you can they might not be willing or able to schedule your hours around your other job.

If your whole point is that it's better to be poor in America than in many other parts of the world I agree.


Well I've since escaped minimum wage hell, but I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that being poor was easy anywhere.

Still doesn't answer any of these questions: What happens if you get in a car crash and become a quadriplegic for the rest of your life? Life sucks sometimes, that's just reality. 100% of human beings aren't going to live perfect lives.

There's no such thing as being poor in the USA, there's only being a lazy piece of ****.

If you want to see poor, go to Africa. That is poor, not some American who lives on $1000 a month.

[JKD]

What happens if you get in a car crash and become a quadriplegic for the rest of your life? Life sucks sometimes, that's just reality. 100% of human beings aren't going to live perfect lives. Still doesn't answer any of those questions. And doesn't prove your point that living on minimum wage in the States is some sort of paradise.

There's no such thing as being poor in the USA, there's only being a lazy piece of ****.
Some of the hardest working people I've ever known are/were poor. They work the sorts of jobs that you seem to think that only illegals would work.

If you want to see poor, go to Africa. That is poor, not some American who lives on $1000 a month.
I have no doubt that many people in Africa live ****ty lives. Again, as I said in my last post, if your argument is that it's better to be poor in America than in many other parts of the world I agree with you.

As for the $1000 dollars a month, do me a favor and look up "cost of living".

[shocker1]

What happens if you get in a car crash and become a quadriplegic for the rest of your life? Life sucks sometimes, that's just reality. 100% of human beings aren't going to live perfect lives.

There's no such thing as being poor in the USA, there's only being a lazy piece of ****.

If you want to see poor, go to Africa. That is poor, not some American who lives on $1000 a month.
I see what your are getting at, your last sentence makes sense but your other emotional jumbles do not. No one in their right mind would compare American poor to African famine.

[ViktorNavorski]

What happens if you get in a car crash and become a quadriplegic for the rest of your life? Life sucks sometimes, that's just reality. 100% of human beings aren't going to live perfect lives.
No ****, Sherlock, guess what, minimum wage isn't perfect either.

Working as hard as you're imagining it, "young, healthy, single, no kid," is going to quickly dwindle down to "single, no kid." The other two criteria is going to be a big additional expanses. Here is an advice for you, for a punk that proclaimed "I come from an upper middle class family and I have always had everything at my disposal, never lacked anything," with an uncle owning a deli and feeding him for free, you're going to the last person in this universe anybody would listen to about "hard life" and minimum wage. YOU have NO IDEA what any of those two things really mean.

I came from Viet Nam, mind you, the area that lost the war, so those commies bastards weren't particularly concern about us. From that vantage point, Mexico might as well be a first world country. My family and I had to crossed a freaking ocean, barring the usual incidents with smugglers, wanna-be pirates and ****s in the ocean that have multiple ways of biting, eating, or stinging you in various ways. After all that, all we got was a nice stay in a some camp on some godforsaken island we didn't even knew the U.S. had authority over, we eventually got to the States LEGALLY. You're so-called "life experience" that you're basing your opinions on amount to nothing.

[kabex]

No ****, Sherlock, guess what, minimum wage isn't perfect either.

Working as hard as you're imagining it, "young, healthy, single, no kid," is going to quickly dwindle down to "single, no kid." The other two criteria is going to be a big additional expanses. Here is an advice for you, for a punk that proclaimed "I come from an upper middle class family and I have always had everything at my disposal, never lacked anything," with an uncle owning a deli and feeding him for free, you're going to the last person in this universe anybody would listen to about "hard life" and minimum wage. YOU have NO IDEA what any of those two things really mean.

I came from Viet Nam, mind you, the area that lost the war, so those commies bastards weren't particularly concern about us. From that vantage point, Mexico might as well be a first world country. My family and I had to crossed a freaking ocean, barring the usual incidents with smugglers, wanna-be pirates and ****s in the ocean that have multiple ways of biting, eating, or stinging you in various ways. After all that, all we got was a nice stay in a some camp on some godforsaken island we didn't even knew the U.S. had authority over, we eventually got to the States LEGALLY. You're so-called "life experience" that you're basing your opinions on amount to nothing. Viktor, that made no sense. I was only talking about an experience I had working in the USA, for very little time but it was appropiate.

Do YOU come from Vietnam? Did you actually live there and remember it? If you do, then that is a rough life, not living in the USA on one thousand dollars a month.

That's my point, being poor in the USA is not being poor, it's living a decent life. For people with kids and marriages and all that there is welfare and a lot of government help.

Americans should not complain about minimum wage, that's my point. Mexicans should, vietnamese should, nigerians should. Not Americans, or first worlders.

If you complain, you're a useless idiot.

Capitalism has a way of ****ing over people who don't want to work, or are generally useless. Capitalism works, you live in capitalism. Embrace it, or leave.


Still doesn't answer any of those questions. And doesn't prove your point that living on minimum wage in the States is some sort of paradise.
It is a paradise. Look around, the majority of human beings live in poverty and completely awful conditions, the USA is paradise, even in minimum wage.

Some of the hardest working people I've ever known are/were poor. They work the sorts of jobs that you seem to think that only illegals would work.
They are "poor" according to you. They are not "poor" according to world standards, they actually live decent lives.

As for the $1000 dollars a month, do me a favor and look up "cost of living".
If you live in Manhattan when earning minimum wage, you're an idiot. You should live in cheap areas, like Arizona, New Mexico, I don't know.

[JKD]

It is a paradise. Look around, the majority of human beings live in poverty and completely awful conditions, the USA is paradise, even in minimum wage.

They are "poor" according to you. They are not "poor" according to world standards, they actually live decent lives.
This will be, what, the third time I've said this now? ....If your whole argument is that it's better to be poor in the US than in many other parts of the world I agree with you.


If you live in Manhattan when earning minimum wage, you're an idiot. You should live in cheap areas, like Arizona, New Mexico, I don't know.
Just as $1000 dollars will go farther in certain parts of the US than it will in places like Mahattan or Hawaii, $1000 dollars will go waaay farther in Africa than it will anywhere in the United States.

[kabex]

This will be, what, the third time I've said this now? ....If your whole argument is that it's better to be poor in the US than in many other parts of the world I agree with you.



Just as $1000 dollars will go farther in certain parts of the US than it will in places like Mahattan or Hawaii, $1000 dollars will go waaay farther in Africa than it will anywhere in the United States.
I've said this what, 3 times now?

There is no poor in the USA, there is only a decent, humane, world standard living or better.

[Creeper]

GAFES: hey ty 4 pting out the typos, least you can read and I can not use the spell chkr. get over urdelf.
Meanwhile- you, a spoiled mexican muchacho with the potty mouth ! LOL You wrote the following:
How can you judge a candidate for president without him being president yet?what I think is pathetic is re electing a baby killer like Bush.
Mhh i have no idea. Maybe you can start counting how many babies were killed in Iraq by the ''smart bombs''.
Not all the upper social class thinks this way. My family owns several businesses... and abviously we are not poor.
It just shows your arrogance, and hunger for territory.

Kabex has put up a good arguement/discussion on the topic at hand. It has swerved from the potential elected leadership but nether the less, he (Kabex) has argued with good spirit. I respect him for his position in it.

But you, Gafes and others, have failed to understand and address that this country is a nation of LAWS. Example: I see 50 or more latinios booked into the local county jail on a daily basis from everything to traffic to DUI to Drugs. Those numbers clearly outweigh the 'other' citizens 10 to 1.

Bottom line: IMHO: We ,the United States, can not , will not carry a 'Illegal" individuals on the rolls any longer. It has created legal, health, commerce, politcal and societal issues that can no longer be left un-addressed and unresolved.
Your newly elected official will bring changes to the environment between the two countries.As this nation will change the way your government operates.
Be free to chk my spelling !

[Zarathustra]

Can Mexican-Americans vote for the presidente ( at least those who have the 2 citizenship ? )

[kabex]

Can Mexican-Americans vote for the presidente ( at least those who have the 2 citizenship ? )
Yes.

@Creeper: Thanks.

[ViktorNavorski]

If you live in Manhattan when earning minimum wage, you're an idiot. You should live in cheap areas, like Arizona, New Mexico, I don't know.
Thats been pretty much your MO. Good God, how hard is it to realize that people living on minimum wage in the U.S. LIVE IN in the U.S. They don't live in Mexico or Africa or somewhere else in the world. Sure, in those places U.S. minimum wage is going to buy you a condo or two with three banquets a day, but guess what, people earning U.S. minimum wage IN the U.S. DO NOT live in those countries. And in the U.S. a condo or two with three banquets a day is going to cost you more than "world standard" pricing. Capitalism called that "cost of living" and it is not the same standard for every countries, as a matter of fact, it is not even the same for every states in one country. "for very little time but it was appropiate" my ass, like its been said earlier, you don't know jack & **** and jack already left town.

[kabex]

Thats been pretty much your MO. Good God, how hard is it to realize that people living on minimum wage in the U.S. LIVE IN in the U.S. They don't live in Mexico or Africa or somewhere else in the world. Sure, in those places U.S. minimum wage is going to buy you a condo or two with three banquets a day, but guess what, people earning U.S. minimum wage IN the U.S. DO NOT live in those countries. And in the U.S. a condo or two with three banquets a day is going to cost you more than "world standard" pricing. Capitalism called that "cost of living" and it is not the same standard for every countries, as a matter of fact, it is not even the same for every states in one country. "for very little time but it was appropiate" my ass, like its been said earlier, you don't know jack & **** and jack already left town.
Let me be honest here:

I've lived in the USA, earning $5.00 USD/Hour. I lived decently.
I only did it for a week, because I didn't want to be an illegal, but in that week I learned enough to see what a month of living would be like, or 6 months, or a year.

Earning minimum wage is more than enough. I know because I did it.

Oh my god, when will you people understand that? If I had continued working there I would have quite a bit of surplus money while living a more than decent life.

[ViktorNavorski]

Let me be honest here:

I've lived in the USA, earning $5.00 USD/Hour. I lived decently.
I only did it for a week, because I didn't want to be an illegal, but in that week I learned enough to see what a month of living would be like, or 6 months, or a year.

Earning minimum wage is more than enough. I know because I did it.

Oh my god, when will you people understand that? If I had continued working there I would have quite a bit of surplus money while living a more than decent life.

Yeah, 'cause obviously, everybody in the U.S. got an uncle with a deli we all can leech off.:roll:

Man, I exercise for about week in Coronado, you know what, I'm a NAVY SEAL!!!

[kabex]

Yeah, 'cause obviously, everybody in the U.S. got an uncle with a deli we all can leech off.:roll:

Man, I exercise for about week in Coronado, you know what, I'm a NAVY SEAL!!! OLOL YOU SURE OWNED ME PAL YEP I LEECHD OFF OF HIM I AM STUPID AHAHA I HAVE NO DIEA DA LOL !! I LEECHED! I DIDNT WORK 13 HOURS A DAY AT ALL I DIDNT LIVE ON MINIMUM WAGE !

I only ATE there, nothing more. My uncle was a complete asshole to me in fact.
It was a bonus of the job, I got paid less than minimum wage and had no guarantees whatsoever, it was only fair. Food doesn't cost you that much.

Jesus ****ing christ that's it I am not discussing anything else on this damned message board, you're all doing the same stupid routine.

[Headcoach]

Jesus ****ing christ that's it I am not discussing anything else on this damned message board, you're all doing the same stupid routine.

Don't get mad! To be honest, I don't think you can judge a book by its cover and I don't think that you can say you lived good here in the US for one week and minimual wage and you can survive for more than a week, month, year on that.

What other people were try to tell you is that one can not live on $5.50 a hours here in this country and have "Quality of Life." You yourself said that you had to live with a friend and eat at your Uncles place. Here in Phoenix, they find "Drop Houses" with over 50 Mexicans living under the same roof. Why? So that they can afford to live here...that's why!

Here's one of the problems. We are a nation of LAWS. In fact, we pride ourselves on that. Are we perfect....no! As that may be, we like following the rules. That why we don't like it when we are standing in line and someone cuts. Most of the time we don't say anything because it's not really that big of a deal.

The same holds true and our attitudes on Illegals. For the last two hundred years, people have immigrated to this country and they have come here the right way.

So, this Illegal problem that we have here in this country...is it our fault? I say....yes!

We have allowed it by looking the other way. One of the reason why we do this is because there are so many Hispanics in this country and we don't just stop them on the street and ask them for there papers. This is not Germany (Circa 1940's).

People in this country have rights. However, we are all born with god given rights. But, if you belong to this country, you have right guaranteed to you by the Consitution. However, if you are not a citizen, some of the rights do not pretain to you.

Here's how I see it. I DON"T CARE HOW MANY PEOPLE COME TO THE US. JUST DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!!!!

Our main problem here in the US is that the business owner hires illegals at below standard wages. Americans or whites as you put it, don't do these jobs because they can't feed a family or survive on the low wage that the businessman is offereing. In order to do that, you will need two or three jobs to make it work.

It's not that the "White man" won't do the job, it just that he wants to be paid fair wages to do the job. So what ends up is the businessman says that he has had the job posted in the newspaper for month's and no one will take the job. I say, if you pay a little more for the job, some "White man" will take it, then he could feed his family and pay rent.

What we have done is developed a false economy by hiring illegal workers. So how do we fix it? It very easy....

First and foremost, we shut down the illegal flow of immigrants across the border.

Second, we use the system to find the illegal workers. This can be done by tracking there false Social Secuity numbers that they are using when they go in to get a job. All worker have to show this card, whether it be a good number or bad. Here in Phoenix, you can buy a whole packet of Social Security Numbers and Birth Certificates for $50.00

Third, once they are found, they are arrested for entering illegally, just like they would do if we entered illegally in Mexico.

Fouth, we fine the businessman for hiring them. Money and some jail time will do good, right about here.

However, it will probably take another 9/11 for the government to wake up and secure the borders.

Did you know that 60% of the illegals coming across the Texas border are not from Mexico! Thinks about that one.

Head coach

[tuercas]

the president race is not over yet, we still have to wait for the official manual count, its supposed to be completed on friday or saturday, this is not unusual , the same thing happened in 2000.

some irregularities have come up , suposedly there is a lot ballots missing or unacceptable, i find it very difficult to believe someone who probably stood in line for 2 hours will not know how to place a big X or a thumbprint on someones face in our "fisher price" ballots.

http://www.tvazteca.com.mx/hechos/archivos2/2006/7/133277.shtml

the PRD has done their math and supposedly there is a discrepancy of about 3 million votes. Go AMLO go!

[kabex]

the president race is not over yet, we still have to wait for the official manual count, its supposed to be completed on friday or saturday, this is not unusual , the same thing happened in 2000.

some irregularities have come up , suposedly there is a lot ballots missing or unacceptable, i find it very difficult to believe someone who probably stood in line for 2 hours will not know how to place a big X or a thumbprint on someones face in our "fisher price" ballots.

http://www.tvazteca.com.mx/hechos/archivos2/2006/7/133277.shtml

the PRD has done their math and supposedly there is a discrepancy of about 3 million votes. Go AMLO go!
Hehe, when economists and investors noted that Calderon was shown as a winner(for now) they all rushed and bought Mexican stock.

Our stock market increased more than 4%(that's HUGE).

If AMLO is declared winner, it's going down about -10% I bet. Hahaha, that's going to be ugly.

[GAFES]

However, it will probably take another 9/11 for the government to wake up and secure the borders.

Did you know that 60% of the illegals coming across the Texas border are not from Mexico! Thinks about that one.

Head coach

I want to quote these last comments.

If I was you I wouldnt worry about terrorists trying to cross the border , I mean, terrorist are one of the main reasons why so many americans are desperate to secure the borders, right? Ok. Well, if you didn't know, In Mexico we have the CISEN, the national intelligence agency, and also we have the Seccion 2da , the military intelligence. These agencies along with the PGR and NAVY form a security council created after the 9/11 events. This security council meets every week and disccuss national security issues, and one of them is Terrorism. And let me tell you, So far they haven't find evidence of terrorist groups in Mexico, nor terrorist trying to reach the United States. Navy and Army Special Forces are constantly doing intelligence gathering missions in the northern border. Like General. Gerardo Clemente Vega Garcia once said '' We are not Sleeping''

Believe it or not, Mexico is an strategic allie of the US. We cover your butt in the south. Just like we did during the Cold War.


http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album138/afx.sized.jpg



Anyway. If you want to know more about this, please visit:

http://www.senado.gob.mx/index.php?accion=nada&ver=documento&lk=sdn/sdn.html

[kabex]

^^ "securing our borders against terrorists" is codename for "keeping away the mexicans". Real terrorists go in legally.

(just a small comment ;))

[ViktorNavorski]

OLOL YOU SURE OWNED ME PAL YEP I LEECHD OFF OF HIM I AM STUPID AHAHA I HAVE NO DIEA DA LOL !! I LEECHED! I DIDNT WORK 13 HOURS A DAY AT ALL I DIDNT LIVE ON MINIMUM WAGE !

I only ATE there, nothing more. My uncle was a complete asshole to me in fact.
It was a bonus of the job, I got paid less than minimum wage and had no guarantees whatsoever, it was only fair. Food doesn't cost you that much.

Jesus ****ing christ that's it I am not discussing anything else on this damned message board, you're all doing the same stupid routine.

Oh, boo hoo, what's wrong, your same stupid routine doesn't quiet cut it anymore. Time to increase the wager, "My uncle was evil...now I get pay less than minimum wage," what's next, your apartment is actually a shack.

[Bert]

^^ "securing our borders against terrorists" is codename for "keeping away the mexicans". Real terrorists go in legally.

(just a small comment ;))
Then again, seeing as random Mexican citizens walking through the desert can cross it and live in the U.S. unaccounted for, what says a terrorist cell can't do it? Securing the border is important, because what's the point of all those army men at the airport when the terrorists wind up paying some coyote to get them across the southern border instead? p-)

[tuercas]

Then again, seeing as random Mexican citizens walking through the desert can cross it and live in the U.S. unaccounted for, what says a terrorist cell can't do it? Securing the border is important, because what's the point of all those army men at the airport when the terrorists wind up paying some coyote to get them across the southern border instead? p-)
why would terrorist bother crossing miles of desert when they can just skip accross from canada, as the have already done in the past.

lets face it, We Mexicans get blamed for the economic problems of the US but the powerful people of the US recognise that they need a work force with no rigths, to stop immigration, companies have to be punished for hiring illegals , until that happens , no wall will stop anyone.

[AOCBravo2004]

The real question is did PRI lose a lot of ground in the legislature???

companies have to be punished for hiring illegals , until that happens , no wall will stop anyone.

Absolutely, American companies need to be hit, and be HIT HARD! Also until economic opportunities improve further in Mexico for the poor they will continue to migrate north.

[Headcoach]

I want to quote these last comments.

So far they haven't find evidence of terrorist groups in Mexico, nor terrorist trying to reach the United States.

If Illegals can get in....anyone can get in.

Here, do be a favor, read this and let me know what you think. This link is from the web site that informed the American public that Dubi was going to purchase seaport in the US. So you know that the information on the site has merit.
http://www.worldthreats.com/al-qaeda_terrorism/newswnd.html

If this information is true, it's to late for your CISEN, the National Intelligence Agency, the Seccion 2da , the Military Intelligence, PGR and NAVY.

Head coach

[no-way-jose]

^^ "securing our borders against terrorists" is codename for "keeping away the mexicans". Real terrorists go in legally.

(just a small comment ;))

Ohh wait until they realize that hispanics and muslim look alike. Then, they will said that spanish (castellano) sound like arabic.... Or like the Brazilian dude who was shot dead in UK (he looks like a terrorist.) Yeah all the racial profiling crap is just an excuse to single out non white people. Saudi arabians came to US legally, have money and took airplane lessons. However, US didnt invade Saudi Arabia...why? And honestly I dont know the answer so if anybody can explain me that, I will appreciate.
Byee

[AOCBravo2004]

Ohh wait until they realize that hispanics and muslim look alike. Then, they will said that spanish (castellano) sound like arabic.... Or like the Brazilian dude who was shot dead in UK (he looks like a terrorist.) Yeah all the racial profiling crap is just an excuse to single out non white people. Saudi arabians came to US legally, have money and took airplane lessons. However, US didnt invade Saudi Arabia...why? And honestly I dont know the answer so if anybody can explain me that, I will appreciate.
Byee

The hijackers were member of al Qaeda, a group centrally located at the time in Afghanistan, well it's leadership at least. Now had bin Laden and his upper echelon been in Saudi Arabia at the time you better believe we'd be at 1.50 gallon :lol:

[no-way-jose]

The hijackers were member of al Qaeda, a group centrally located at the time in Afghanistan, well it's leadership at least. Now had bin Laden and his upper echelon been in Saudi Arabia at the time you better believe we'd be at 1.50 gallon :lol:
But, they were saudi citizens right? And who pays for that? where the money came from? What Iraq has to do with this?
I wish $1.50 gallon too:)
Have a good 4th of July.

[AOCBravo2004]

But, they were saudi citizens right? And who pays for that? where the money came from? What Iraq has to do with this?
I wish $1.50 gallon too:)
Have a good 4th of July.

Not all of them were Saudi citizens, I believe 15 were, but just because they are Saudi citizens does not mean that had support from the Saudi government in carrying out the act. Where did the money for the operation come from? bin Laden, bin Laden's father owned a large construction company in Saudi Arabia and built up quite a fortune. I think Osama got something like $40 million, also just like Hamas and other terrorists organizations they get donations from their supporters. What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? Absolutely nothing.

[GAFES]

If Illegals can get in....anyone can get in.

Here, do be a favor, read this and let me know what you think. This link is from the web site that informed the American public that Dubi was going to purchase seaport in the US. So you know that the information on the site has merit.
http://www.worldthreats.com/al-qaeda_terrorism/newswnd.html

If this information is true, it's to late for your CISEN, the National Intelligence Agency, the Seccion 2da , the Military Intelligence, PGR and NAVY.

Head coach

Hmmm they have been saying the same story since the 9/11. This type of stories only cause more mental trauma to US citizens.

[AOCBravo2004]

A mature democracy or more fraud? Mexicans divided

By Catherine Bremer Mon Jul 3, 4:22 PM ET

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - A cliffhanger presidential vote and rival claims of victory have split Mexicans into two camps: those who believe in their young democracy and others who fear the bad old days of fraud are not yet gone.

As the conservative ruling party's Felipe Calderon declared himself president-elect on Monday and his leftist rival, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, huddled with advisors to decide how to challenge the result, their supporters took very different views on the state of democracy.

Some saw the election as another success, showing Mexico had not only embraced free and fair elections but was able to keep calm even when the result was extremely close.

Others who support Lopez Obrador, an anti-poverty crusader, said the election stank of the dirty tricks that were so common in Mexico during most of the 20th century.

"For me, this is fraud. It's not fair," 57-year-old Francesca Contreras said angrily as she wiped clean the counter of her stall in a sprawling Mexico City food market.

"I believe Lopez Obrador won. Entire neighborhoods voted for him ... They are plotting something and they are mocking the people. I hope people rise up, even take up arms, against this."

Although the Federal Electoral Institute (IFE) has ordered a recount for Wednesday, official returns from 97.7 percent of polling stations gave National Action Party candidate Calderon a lead of 1 percentage point, or nearly 400,000 votes, over Lopez Obrador.

Both had claimed victory on Sunday night after an election that opinion polls predicted would be nailbitingly close.

PRESSURE

Wall Street and political analysts have said they fear a narrow Calderon victory could spark street protests by Lopez Obrador supporters, who chanted victory on Sunday and warned they would not accept foul play.

But some Mexicans were confident democratic institutions can handle the pressure.

"It's great. It was a clean election. They are fighting over who won. This shows we are learning democracy," said Juan Ayuba, 58, selling pickles and glazed fruit at the market.

"It's not like before, when there was a lot of manipulation of the elections. IFE will have the final word."

The Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, which ruled for 71 years until it was finally toppled in 2000, trailed in a distant third place in Sunday's vote.

It was a far cry from the days when PRI presidents handpicked their successors, local party chiefs would coerce the poor to vote for the party and operatives simply stole elections if they faced a real challenge.

Mexico has been scrabbling slowly toward democracy ever since the 1988 election was famously rigged, with the PRI government claiming its computers crashed just as leftist Cuauhtemoc Cardenas was headed for victory.

When the computerized vote count was restarted, PRI candidate Carlos Salinas was winning.

"For 71 years we were under an anarchy and now we are excited because we see things have changed," said butcher Fernando Salcedo of the changed political map.

Many of Mexico's poor remain disillusioned however.

"Ah, so it went into penalties," joked a rubbish sweeper at the market, who hadn't voted or followed the result. "Anyway, why vote? They're all the same, they all rob us."

............

[kabex]

They started a complete recount yesterday, vote by vote.

It's just now around 97% completed, and PRD(Lopez Obrador) is winning by 0.10% his advantage is decreasing over time, it has been since many hours ago.

In one hour we should see Calderon(PAN) ahead, and after that, he's probably going to move up maybe as far as his previous 1% advantage.

I am quite content, one thing tho... the south has me furious.

Calderon only won this election because of the north, all of northern Mexico is blue, while the south all yellow. This just further displeases the northeners with the south, since the beginning of time we haven't been too fond of them.

If I had my way I'd separate my state from the rest of Mexico, or at least form a northern republic of some sort. I can't even begin to imagine what this country would be if the north didn't have a hand in its politics.

[tuercas]

the vote is over , Calderon wins with a razor thin margin of .57% representing 238022 votes, about the population of a small town . AMLO is calling for a manual count after many ballots where found in the city dump in Nezaualcoyotl.and under the constitution it is his rigth to do so, this drama ir far from over as it could go on for another 4 days.

[americanbychoice]

I am relieved that Calderon won... but knowing how the Bush-Gore election went in the U.S. & seeing how small the margin of victory is in Mexico, I'm not sure that things will be very easy for Calderon even if he does hold on to this election.

As for the Mexican people... in the US, we are concerned with the bad people coming across - the gangsters, the lazy, that sort of thing. I don't think anyone disagrees with having hard-working Mexican people coming north to find jobs, as long as they don't "jump ahead" of other immigrants who are waiting to go through the legal process.

It's really not just a Mexican issue. Chinese, Filipinos, Cubans, all sorts of people want to come to America... even those dirty Canadians! ;) By accident of geography, some Mexicans can jump ahead of everyone else?

If we have a more honest immigration policy between the US & Mexico, then you can't lump together the criminals with the actual good Mexicans who want a better job... and really, won't that be a better thing than we have now?

[tuercas]

its not over yet;
La reforma newspaper july 11, Babelfish translation.
It presents/displays Obrador fraud tests MEXICO. - Andrés Manuel Lopez Obrador presented/displayed two videos yesterday to prove the presumed "pregnancy" of a ballot box in Salamanca and the probable alteration of a act in district 3 of Querétaro. The tapes were described by the PRD member like a test that it not only had to face the steering mechanism, but also to "raccoons", term that used to describe president Vicente Fox. "Fox has become a traitor to the democracy, because so that it arrived at the Presidency went away little by little opening spaces, with the suffering, with the sacrifice of much people... And it arrives at the Presidency thanks to that and he behaves thus, of undemocratic way, like raccoon ", accused. Tabasqueño projected one first recording in which it is possible to be observed a citizen - who later verified that he was the president of basic square 2227, Gilberto Castro- introducing tickets to a ballot box for federal deputies, in Salamanca. According to the candidate, in that square the count of the votes also was altered in the accounting for President. 192 votes for BREAD and 12 for Lopez Obrador were registered. "With this the necessity is left of manifesto to open the electoral packages and to count vote by vote. As they see, if Manuel lived Go'mez Morín (founding of the BREAD) would become to die ", assured. In the second video the count of votes in distrital meeting 3 is appraised, of Querétaro, where the act of basic square 0740 registers 400 votes in favor of the BREAD, unlike the ballot boxes for deputies and senators whom they less had around 200 votes. In the tape it is appraised like the representative of the BREAD, federal deputy Manuel Ovalle, recognizes that although "harakiri" becomes is not possible that that difference of votes is registered, reason why requests to open the packages. The distrital advice accepted it and he demonstrated that 207 votes of more had been computed him to Calderón. The corrected results were based in the official act of the count.
it seems AMLO has video tape evidence of ballot tampering , here is a link to the story in spanish.
http://www.elmanana.com.mx/argosnew/seccion/portada/portada1.aspx

[kabex]

Hahahaahahahaha man I am getting a good laugh out of all this.

Lefties. :D

[fremen]

its not over yet;

it seems AMLO has video tape evidence of ballot tampering , here is a link to the story in spanish.
http://www.elmanana.com.mx/argosnew/seccion/portada/portada1.aspx

You know, and I know, that to this date Mr. López has produced absolutely no credible evidence that electoral fraud took place whatsoever. The so called video evidence has been shot down so effectively that Mr. López has not said a word about that particular evidence in more than a week. He claims that what the video showed was a polling center president (chairman) illegaly introducing ballots into a ballot box to favor Felipe Calderón. That version was effectively shot down from many angles. To beggin with, the ballot box in the video says "DIPUTADOS" on the top, which means that it was a ballot box for the congressional election, not president (on July 2, Mexicans voted for President, Senators, and Congressmen (Diputados) (in some states they also voted for local authorities)). What the voting station president what actually doing was introducing ballots for "Diputados" into the "DIPUTADOS" ballot box which were initially placed by mistake by three voters into the ballot box for president. This happens all the time and is standard procedure, as voters fold their ballots after voting and on a few occations introduce the ballots into the wrong ballot box. This mistake is corrected when the ballot boxes are openend and the ballots are counted.
Mr. López presented this video thinking that people are stupid and won't be able to figure out what really happened. He even edited the sound, when the voting station president is saying "uno, dos, tres" in front of everyone present including the camera person and the PRD representative, who by the way appeared on national television defending the voting station president and saying that he had acted with the consent of all present (voting station president, secretary, scrutineer 1, scrutineer 2, and up to two representatives from each party). All present in that particular voting station (one out of something like 140,000 polling stations nationwide) signed the results documents and no one signed under protest which indicates that everyone was in agreement over the results. Mr. López has now gone as far as to accuse everyone, even thousands of representatives from his own party of having been bought out. He has gone to the ridiculous extremes of even accusing Mexican juice producer Jumex of putting comercials on the air which induced people to vote for Calderón because Jumex cans are blue and white (the PAN's colors) (by the way Jumex cans have been blue and white since the 60's).
López Obrador wants to win on the streets with massive demonstrations (of union members and people paid to be there (a great many of them, anyway)), what he was unable to win on election day in the ballot boxes. His defeat is a huge blessing for México and all Mexicans. Calderón won cleanly and under total conditions of equality, a fact supported by IFE and even the delegation from the European Union.

[tuercas]

i know its all over but one it has to be acknowledged how resilient AMLO is being about it. there was suposed to be some demostrations around here as well.if they are going to give away free tortas and pepsicola i will be at the demo, just like in the good old PRI days :)

P.S jumex is reactionary, decadent, burgoise juice!

Del Valle all the way baby!
http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4171/dddb08vz3.th.jpg (http://img476.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dddb08vz3.jpg)

[AOCBravo2004]

FANTA, that is all I gotta say about that.

[fremen]

FANTA, that is all I gotta say about that.

Fanta is originally from Germany Bravo.

Tuercas:
Amlo will probably next accuse Del Valle of trying to get people to vote for Madrazo.

[fremen]

Here's a little bit about what I was saying regarding Mr. López paying people to go to his demonstrations and thus try to win on the street what he lost in the polls:

Cobrarán acarreados mil pesos por acudir a las asambleas.

Por acudir a las tres asambleas informativas convocadas por Andrés Manuel López Obrador, Arturo Cárdenas, proveniente de Hidalgo, recibirá mil pesos. Ayer ya contaba con la tercera parte, pues ha estado en las dos realizadas hasta ahora, pero, para recibir el resto, tiene que estar el próximo 30 de julio afuera del metro Pino Suárez a las 8:00 horas. Allí, miembros del PRD le darán lo que le toca.
Con él, otros cien de sus compañeros, afiliados al sol azteca en ese estado, vinieron al Distrito Federal este domingo.
"Venimos porque nos van a dar un dinero, si no, pues mejor apoyamos desde lejos", confesó Rubelio Gómez, también de Hidalgo.
Ayer, durante la segunda asamblea informativa para exigir el conteo voto por voto de la elección presidencial se observaron miles de acarreados que llegaron de diversas partes del país.
Las calles de Izazaga, Fray Servando, Pino Suárez y el Eje Central fueron su punto de encuentro.
A lo largo de esas vialidades, brigadistas del PRD pasaban lista de asistencia y entregaban desayunos a quienes descendían de los camiones particulares rentados para los traslados al mitin.
El chofer Humberto Buendía trajo desde Querétaro a más de 60 personas. El sol azteca le pagará 500 pesos y lo contratará para la tercera asamblea. Sin embargo, para la próxima movilización la tarifa por venir al DF puede que suba, comentó Efraín M., quien vino desde Sinaloa.
"Un grupo de 25 personas venimos de una empresa que tiene relación con el partido (PRD) allá en Culiacán, pero como tenemos que volver en 15 días, vamos a cobrar más, ya estamos cansados de venir a estas cosas", explicó el hombre, quien recibió 400 pesos por la marcha de ayer.
A Margarita Córdova, de 62 años, no le pagaron con efectivo. Le pidieron que viniera desde Puebla a apoyar "al jefe" con las comidas y desayunos pagados.
"No tenía nada que hacer, al menos no gasto nada estando aquí", dijo la mujer.
Ayer mismo también se pudo ver durante la caminata realizada desde el Museo Nacional de Antropología hasta el Zócalo capitalino como perredistas exigían aportaciones a los ciudadanos que se congregaron para apoyar al tabasqueño Los brigadistas pasaban entre la gente con pequeños baldes para pedirles a los participantes algo de dinero.
"Tenemos que pedir porque con eso pagamos estas marchas, sale caro traer a tanta gente y al partido solo no le alcanza", dijo uno de ellos, quien se identificó como Armando Sánchez.

This is from the newspaper "La Crónica de Hoy" dated 17-07-06:
http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=251533

López Obrador reminds me so much of the good old days of the PRI. Thank the Lord he lost!

[AOCBravo2004]

Fanta is originally from Germany Bravo.

That may be so, but Mexican Fanta vs American Fanta...... The strawberry fanta is heaven

[fremen]

That may be so, but Mexican Fanta vs American Fanta...... The strawberry fanta is heaven

The same goes for most Mexican softdrinks, like Mexican Coca Cola. My theory is that they taste better because they use real cane suggar instead of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

[no-way-jose]

The same goes for most Mexican softdrinks, like Mexican Coca Cola. My theory is that they taste better because they use real cane suggar instead of High Fructose Corn Syrup.
I think every latin country uses suggar cane to manufacture soft drinks...And yeah they taste much better than those made of corn syrup.

[AOCBravo2004]

The same goes for most Mexican softdrinks, like Mexican Coca Cola. My theory is that they taste better because they use real cane suggar instead of High Fructose Corn Syrup.

You are in Texas right? I am addicted to the Dr Pepper from Dublin, TX because they use real cane sugar. Once you have had that Dr Pepper it's hard to drink the other stuff.

[fremen]

I've never tasted that root beer, if I'm ever in Dublin, TX. I'll give it a try. My favorite softdrink is probably Sangría Señorial, though I hardly ever have it. I mostly drink Diet Coke because I wan't to avoid the HFCS and all the calories. When I'm in México I drink Coca Light, it tastes like real Coca Cola and has none of the calories.

[kabex]

Yeah this "completely orchestrated fraud" deal is pretty damn stupid.

I have no idea how people can believe in AMLO after all this. Every single journalist has completely humilliated him, every single thing he has said has been shot down and ridiculed.

I mean, if he had won in the ballots, that's fine. But he didn't.

He has also been criticizing the PAN representatives, public figures and Calderon himself, of asking for peace and not wanting violence. He says he would never try to incite violence of any kind.

The other day I was watching one of those PRD rallies, and the people were shouting something like "RECOUNT OR REVOLUTION!!!".

Yeah. Revolution. Hahahahahahahaha.

Quite honestly though, me and the northeners would love a little revolution. The entire government will back up the conservatives, including the army.

The only thing that would happen is that hundreds of thousands of machete-wielding populists would die, to our loss of 3 soldiers and order would be re-established.

What I still can't believe, is that AMLO calls the election a "complete fraud" every single witness, be it people, organizations, international organizations, federal institutions, UN observers, etc has said the election was exemplary.

[tuercas]

Yeah this "completely orchestrated fraud" deal is pretty damn stupid.

I have no idea how people can believe in AMLO after all this. Every single journalist has completely humilliated him, every single thing he has said has been shot down and ridiculed.

I mean, if he had won in the ballots, that's fine. But he didn't.

He has also been criticizing the PAN representatives, public figures and Calderon himself, of asking for peace and not wanting violence. He says he would never try to incite violence of any kind.

The other day I was watching one of those PRD rallies, and the people were shouting something like "RECOUNT OR REVOLUTION!!!".

Yeah. Revolution. Hahahahahahahaha.

Quite honestly though, me and the northeners would love a little revolution. The entire government will back up the conservatives, including the army.

The only thing that would happen is that hundreds of thousands of machete-wielding populists would die, to our loss of 3 soldiers and order would be re-established.

What I still can't believe, is that AMLO calls the election a "complete fraud" every single witness, be it people, organizations, international organizations, federal institutions, UN observers, etc has said the election was exemplary.

i would not call the north a blessed land , its basically just Monterrey that stands out, everywhere else is just as bad as the southern states, the only thing that we are missing are all the angry indians with attitudes , albeit durango and sonora have their fair share. i think we need to stay united as a nation, that is why i have never aproved of this Nortenos vs Oaxaquillas mentality.

i dont think we want to start a Pan vs PRD war, just look at what happened in San salvador atenco, the left can be very determined and has no fear of getting involved in violence , specially in states that got nothing during the Fox regime, Michoacan and Guerrero comes to mind.

Eventhough AMLO's is getting too "Chavista" for my taste , he does have a point as to why the PAN are so against a manual recount. "el que nada debe, nada teme" was AMLO's phrase and i think it fits in this situation.

[kabex]

A manual recount would drive the economy to the ground. Investors are already damn scared, they are taking their money back.

A complete recount which would take a long time would scare everyone, and they'd go to other countries where there is no political unrest.

As for your comments on the North, I think you're completely wrong. Having lived here in Sonora all my life, I think it's much much better than the south. Monterrey is pretty damn good, but there are endless smaller cities with great life.

My city is #7 in the best cities to live in Mexico(don't have a link sorry). It also has one of the highest gpd per-capita and it has pretty much zero crime-rate. It's absolutely beautiful. Hermosillo is pretty nice as well.

The only thing you have to avoid in the north is the border-cities, but those are that bad because of drug trafficking(thanks USA).

Also, about the san salvador atenco deal, hahahahaah that just goes and shows how completely incompetent the government is in the south. We sonorenses just laugh it up every time the southerners get their machetes out and start doing this stupid crap.

Up here that crap wouldn't last a day. By the way, the North is much more calm as a whole, because it was mostly unpopulated at the time of the colonization, and as such we don't have machete-wielding farmers who will use violence to get anything.

These people should try and get what they want by themselves and stop asking for hand-outs, it just goes and shows you how incredibly populist AMLO and the PRD are. AMLO is saying "the poor first".

Do you have any idea what "the poor first" would do? If you give a poor man a million dollars, he's going to blow it all on parties, booze and luxuries. Then he's going to be even more poor than before.

You can't fix these people by giving them money. Money has never done the lower-socioeconomic any good. Tell me a single country that has fixed this by giving them money?

Africa has gotten trillions of dollars in aid and it's worse than ever before.

I'm sorry, but the south is completely incompetent and this election shows it. They're all populists and the north remains firmly conservative, and wants nothing but stability and peace.

If I had my way, we'd divide the country in two.

[tuercas]

kabex

You wouldnt be in Hermosillo would you.

if you are, i can see what you, mean , hermosillo is very nice.

a manual recount should not be something to be feared, it shows the transparency that the IFE and for the most part the government has been preaching and was really their slogan since the start of the Fox precidensy. it would be more destabilising to keep the "What if?" factor alive and alienate even more the southern states along party lines, Chiapas i could not give a flying $hi7 about, i have no pity for people who do not want to better them selves , but more important states like tabasco, Michoacan, and Guerrero are very important to the economy and although we in the north dont like to think about it much since we are far more modernised. alienating those states because they vote for the "wrong" party will only hurt us as well.

what pisses people in the south is the issuing goverment favors along party lines is astounding , i have family in Michoacan and travel there often. the diference between Jalisco, Guanajuato, and Michoacan is amasing. during the last 6 years both Panista JAL and GTO got all kinds of new infrastructure but more importantly ,water projects. in MICH, a PRD, state almost nothing has been done , it is astounding that in this day and age Michoacan farmers have to still pray for rain because there is not irrigation systems.

IF AMLO doesnt win, i accept that, given that i voted for the guy , but the manual recount is not something that should be feared , PAN should endorse this recount if they are so sure as claimed that no fraud took place.

[kabex]

Calderon already said he completely endorses a recount as long as it is legal and needed.

I don't think he fears anything, and most, if not all PAN voters are completely in favour of any kind of recount.

BTW, I am not in Hermosillo, but I've lived there. I am in Ciudad Obregon, 300km south of HMO.

If you think Hermosillo is very nice, you have no idea what Obregon is like. It's like stepping into Canada(at least in the northern half of the city, which is the metro area).
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Obreg%C3%B3n

"Las 10 mejores ciudades para vivir en Mexico"
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:rf7gVP7jnAsJ:www.manyrob.cinvestav.mx/person/Las%252010%2520mejores%2520ciudades%2520para%2520vivir.pdf+7.+Ciudad+Obreg%C3%B3n+Grado+de+desarrollo:+Alto+PIB+Per+C%C3%A1pita:+%2416,000+USD+Crecimiento+PIB+local+a+2007:+7.6%25+Calificaci%C3%B3n+Global:+58.1&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
7. Ciudad Obregón
Grado de desarrollo : Alto
PIB Per Cápita : $16,000 USD
Crecimiento PIB local a 2007 : 7.6%
Calificación Global: 58.1
La actual administración de la ciudad está impulsando de manera decidida la
construcción de vivienda. En 2004 se construyeron 10 mil casas nuevas, que significa
una inversión superior a los $800 millones de pesos.
Lo que hace de esta ciudad una de las más aptas para habitar son su baja incidencia
delictiva, el bajo costo de servicios básicos y vivienda, el sueldo promedio que se paga
a sus ejecutivos, la disponibilidad de agua y su agradable medio ambiente

[fremen]

The votes were already manualy counted Tuercas, on July 2, by citizens not belonging to any party or the government, and in front of representatives from all parties including PRD. The law says that only those "casillas" were there are irregularities in the tallies or in the official vote documents can be re-opened and counted again. That already happened, on Wednesday July 5, something like 2.2 percent of the packages were re-opened and the votes re-counted, and we know the result of that. That was done at the request of representatives from each party.
Let's be frank, López Obrador has proven to be a man with no word. Up to today, he has done everything that he promised he would not do. He said that if he lost "by one vote" he would recognize the victor. He hasn't. He said that he would respect the official results, he hasn't. He said he would respect institutions like IFE, he now calls them criminals. He always recognized polls when they favored him, and when not, he said that they were rigged. He said he would respect the court's rullings, I bet you anything that he won't.
López Obrador knows that you can not open a vote package unless it is justified by law. He knows that if that is done it would constitute a breach of law so severe that the elections would be anulled. That is what he wants. All or nothing. He is taking the country to a very dangerous place. He is threatening the economy and social peace. He has become what his opponents called him during the campaign, "a threat to Mexico". Is he willing to stop short of violence? For the country's sake I hope he is. I certainly don't agree with Kabex about wanting a war, but I think that by his greedy and irresponsible actions López Obrador is leading his minions towards violence. Just a few moments ago some of his followers physically attacked Felipe Calderón's vehicle as he was leaving a reunion.
I think that calling López Obrador a Chavista is quickly becoming a reality.
Here's an article from the newspaper "La Crónica de Hoy" from this morning (sorry for those of you that don't read Spanish, but English language sources are way behind on this or just plain don't understand what's happening, and I don't feel like translating):

“Has (sic) Patria, mata a Calderón…", rezaba la pancarta de jóvenes que este domingo aguardaba el paso de la marcha de Andrés Manuel López Obrador, en Reforma.
Referencias a posibles actos de violencia, como la anterior, están cada vez más presentes en las movilizaciones que encabeza el abanderado de la Coalición por el Bien de Todos, en mantas, consignas discursos y declaraciones.
También frases escatológicas, palabras soeces y consideradas de mal gusto, así como construcciones semánticas que revelan amenazas.
Provienen de colaboradores, de seguidores del abanderado perredista inconforme y del propio López Obrador, quien apenas este domingo advirtió a Felipe Calderón, candidato del Partido Acción Nacional: "Le recomiendo, por él, por sus familiares, por su gente más cercana, que piense, que piense muy bien que la mancha de una elección fraudulenta no se borra ni con todas las aguas de los océanos…".
MíTINES. En las dos concentraciones efectuadas en el Zócalo los días 11 y 16 de julio, se pudo recabar frases contenidas en mantas y pancartas que se desplegaron esos días.
También se hizo con señalamientos hechos por López Obrador y miembros de su primer círculo.
Así, en la movilización de antier se encontraron pancartas, la mayoría hechas a mano, aunque otras eran elaboradas en serie, en donde se observa cómo el odio y el encono comienzan a germinar.
"Calderón y Fox, cada vez que los veo en TV los odio más hijos de su pinche madre", decía una de las que llevaban como destinatario al candidato del PAN y al Presidente.
La levantaba un sujeto que vestía una playera en cuyo frente aparecía un sol azteca y las palabras "promotor del voto".
El candidato López Obrador ha calificado a Calderón como "pelele", y a Fox le endilgó el epíteto de "traidor a la democracia", antes el de "chachalaca" y el de "matraquero".
Al primero también le hicieron una pancarta en la cual se observa su rostro censurado por el signo de prohibido y le imprimieron el mensaje: "De qué se ríe este imbecil".
Y otra más, en las que las primeras letras que conforman el nombre y el primer apellido del candidato panista son unidas de tal forma que se conforma la palabra "fecal": "Que la porquería de Fecal no invada el tribunal".
Una más, cargada de homofobia: "Voto por voto, Felipe no seas joto". Una todavía menos refinada: "Calderón, si así tienes las manos, cómo tendrás el culo".
Y una amenazante: "Democracia=Paz, Fraude=Chingadazos".
Otro mostró este domingo su propio cartel, a manera de respuesta a la declaraciones que hizo el presidente hace unos días: "Renegados tu pinche madre".
El IFE, de cuyo consejero presidente se han elaborado por cientos pancartas en las cuales se apunta la frase "Se busca", también es objeto de agresiones verbales: "¡Ojetes, habran (sic) los paquetes!"
Calderón también es objeto de repudio un una campaña inaugurada por funcionarios del gobierno capitalino en pleno Paseo de la Reforma.
"Josefina-malandrina Calderón-mal bufón, qué no ves que Andrés Manuel es un don de Corazón"; "Huele a PAN con maña, ¡sufragio efectivo, no Calderón!", "En qué país vive FECAL que sostiene que 14 millones de mexicanos somos violentos".
Una más muestra también un signo de prohibido sobre la palabras, escritas con mayúsculas, "Felife Cacalderón".

[fremen]

On Sunday, AMLO even went as far as threatening Calderón's children. What the hell is he thinking?

[kabex]

Truly appalling.
(from what Fremen posted):
AMLO said "I recommend to him, his family, and those closest to him to think, and think very well that the stain of a fraudulent election will not be erased even with the water of the oceans..."

I took the liberty of translating some of these messages, written in banners and the like, by PRD supporters:
"Be a patriot, kill Calderon"
"Calderon and Fox, each time I see them on TV I hate the sons of bitches even more"
"Vote by vote, Felipe don't be a faggot"
"Calderon, if that's how your hands are, I wonder how your asshole is?"
"Democracy=Peace, Fraud=Beatings"
"Renegade your ****ing mother"

It's hard to not hate these people after all of this. PAN supporters would never lower themselves in such a manner.

A little more of this and I'll be welcoming the violence with open arms.

[tuercas]

If you think Hermosillo is very nice, you have no idea what Obregon is like. It's like stepping into Canada(at least in the northern half of the city, which is the metro area).

Mendigo catrin presumido!:) Im joking of course . i have never been to ciudad Obregon but its nice to have progresive modern cities, kind of like my city used to be in the 80's but of couse you guys have much more trees.

The votes were already manualy counted Tuercas, on July 2, by citizens not belonging to any party or the government, and in front of representatives from all parties including PRD.
what i was refering was the recount, i know it is not supposed to happen but i believe the expense of another manual count is worth not having to deal with pissed of PRD supporters for the next 6 years, take away any pretext for violence or other protest nonsense.

[fremen]

what i was refering was the recount, i know it is not supposed to happen but i believe the expense of another manual count is worth not having to deal with pissed of PRD supporters for the next 6 years, take away any pretext for violence or other protest nonsense.

Tuercas:
After AMLO has gone back on his word on every goddamm thing he has said, do you really believe that if there were a recount (I don't think there will be), and he loses again (for a third time), do you really believe that he would grasiously accept defeat? I think he would just find somebody new to accuse of selling out, afterall, he already accused his own party's representatives of that.
However Tuercas, mi estimado amigo y hermano, if you do believe that AMLO would be capable of accepting defeat, I have some very intersting beach front property in Chihuahua that I would be willing to sell to you.

[fremen]

Hay les va esta. Es de USAToday, Julio 17:

Ever since the July 2 election in Mexico, leftist candidate Andrés Manuel López Obrador has been crying foul. The results had him being narrowly overtaken by rightist candidate Felipe Calderón in the final hours of counting. He suspects fraud and wants a recount.
Americans can relate. In 2000, Republican George W. Bush and Democrat Al Gore sparred over the Florida results for more than a month before the U.S. Supreme Court stepped in.

But López Obrador has gone one step further than Gore did. Not only is he demanding a recount, he is organizing civil resistance campaigns to pressure Mexico's election court to grant him one. Those efforts, which reached a fever pitch with a huge rally in Mexico City on Sunday, show a destructive win-at-all-costs attitude that could undermine respect for Mexico's nascent democratic institutions. Extended political turmoil or violence could also undermine Mexico's economy, sending even more illegal immigrants into the USA.

López Obrador is, of course, within his rights to seek a recount and to make the case for such an action in the court of public opinion. And, at the end of the day, it is not inconceivable that the court will side with him. He might even be declared the winner after a recount.

But he crosses a line when he tries to pressure or intimidate the court into granting a recount by putting large numbers of supporters on the streets and making unsubstantiated claims of fraud.

Mexico, though, might yet settle the election with more dignity than some local, state and federal officials displayed in Florida's fracas. It has a specially created seven-member election court empowered to decide when, where and whether recounts are in order.

This type of system can get around a major issue in Florida, which was whether it was fair to conduct recounts only in jurisdictions chosen by the Gore campaign, and where local election officials were sympathetic to his cause. It also would bypass blatantly partisan election officials such as Katherine Harris, Florida's secretary of state and now member of Congress, who showed scant interest in neutrality or integrity.

But like any other court, Mexico's election court needs to be seen as impartial and insulated from political pressure. López Obrador's actions ill serve that cause.

They also raise serious questions about his commitment to truthfulness. As evidence of the alleged fraud, he recently showed a video of a man putting multiple ballots in a box. But the man was quickly identified as a legitimate election official transferring presidential ballots mistakenly placed in a legislative ballot box. If he was not intent on fanning the flames of partisan and class discontent, López Obrador would have investigated the video before making such claims.

Gore realized there was a time to fight and a time to concede. So did Richard Nixon, who did not even challenge his narrow loss in 1960 despite evidence of vote rigging in Illinois. Both put the nation's interests above personal ambition. As he weighs his next move, López Obrador would do well to heed their example.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-07-17-mexico-elections_x.htm